From researching him a little bit, he's definitely not afraid to speak his mind. Savage seems a little out there to me, but hey he does have one of the top shows in the country........

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Red Sox:

[Its interesting how democrats have usually backed the "working man", the little man throughout American history starting in the 1900's.]


I normally do not get into political arguments because there is usually more heat generated than light but feel compelled to offer a little different perspective.

Let's imagine that we followed the utopian model and took all of the wealth in the United States and divided it equally among all of the people in the US. So there are no rich or poor, everyone is exactly equal in wealth. Do you believe that in 5-10-15-20, etc. years that everyone will still have the same amount of wealth as everyone else?

We live in a country with more natural resources and potential for great economic success than any other country in the world. Yet we still have a large class of poor people. Why is this? Is it possible that someone or something is holding those poor people down and guaranteeing they will always remain poor? It must be those nasty conservatives because they have stolen from the poor people for years and don't want to share the wealth with them. On the surface that looks very likely. But let's dig a little deeper to determine who might really benefit from this poor class.

Let's plunk a magic plunker and instantly there are no unemployed or underemployed people in the country. Would that hurt or help me and other conservatives? First my taxes should go down for two reasons; my tax dollars are no longer going to support those poor people because they are now supporting themselves and they are now paying taxes so they pick up some of my share of the load of what the main purpose of our federal government should be, national defense. Second, if all of the underclass is now working at good jobs they will have more money to spend at my clients' businesses. My clients will have more money to spend so they will buy more from me. In turn I will have more money to spend so I will buy more things from the businesses that are now employing the former underclass. Those businesses will have more money so they will be able to provide better wages and benefits for their employees, etc, etc, etc.

Granted, I'm rather slow (it takes me an hour and a half to watch 60 minutes) but I can't see where anyone was damaged in that cycle of events. Oh wait, a little light is starting to shine through. Some of those people like Ted Kennedy, who was born on third base and thinks he hit a triple, are starting to get a little nervous. For years they have been telling those poor people to vote for them and they will continue to fight for the government to "take care of them". Now that they are working and enjoying the fruits of this potentially great economy are they likely to vote for someone who says I will raise taxes in order to pay you a small government check each month. Or, will they be likely to say, "No thanks. Taxing the working class was great while I was on welfare but now that I am working raising taxes doesn't seem like a real good idea any more"? Could it be that the "champions of the poor" would lose their power base if any of their programs designed to help the poor actually worked? That's scary to them but they can continue to introduce program after program, none of which could ever work, in order to keep up their image of "helping the little guy".

Maybe we would be better off by cutting the umbilical cord and forcing the "little guy" to help himself. Henry Ford borrowed money, stuck his neck out farther than anyone could imagine, and built a huge company and industry. Along the way he became a multi-millionaire. Today the top executives of Ford Motor Co. make millions of dollars in salary while the "little guys" out on the production line make a salary and benefit package of only $30-$40 per hour.

It's too bad that the elected officials in the early 1900's weren't farsighted enough to see the future damage that would be caused by this, and other businesses, and regulate them out of existance. If they had we wouldn't have those highly paid executives who are getting rich on the backs of those "little guys" who only make $30-$40 per hour. Instead of struggling along on $30-$40 per hour those "little guys" could be getting a $600 welfare check each month from those multi-millionaires in the government who are "helping them". Would the country be better off or worse off if Henry Ford had continued to repair bicycles and not come up with the crazy idea of building one of those big businesse that victimize the little guy? For one thing it would be a lot easier to find a parking place today.

Let's put Nancy Pelosi in charge of the state tournament. For a few years it will be, "This wrestler doesn't seem to be as strong and well conditioned as the others. That isn't fair so we will put 2 points on the scoreboard for him at the start of each match". After a couple of years she will figure out that that system didn't work because the good wrestlers knew they had to go a little harder to overcome the artificial 2 point penalty. So then Nancy will go to a dual system of equalizing the talent. Some wrestlers are obviously better than the others so she will rule that they cannot use their right arms or legs in any of their moves, and she will give the other wrestlers a 4 point spot before each match. After a few years, when she sees that the good wrestlers are still winning, she will spend millions of dollars on an outside consulting firm (managed by a close friend who makes huge campaign contributions) to study why these "handicapped" wrestler continue to adapt to the artificial restrictions put on them and continue to win. After 5 years and several trips back to congress for more funding this panel of experts will release their 209,873 page report showing the problem isn't with the wrestlers, it's with the award stand. There is only room for one wrestler on the top level and some wrestlers seem to be driven to stand there, regardless of what it takes.

Welcome to the 2020 state tournament. It won't matter whether it's in the Qwest, the Devanny, or the auditorium of Porccupine Flats High School because we won't need room to roll out any mats. The 5 year study revealed that after each match one wrestler usually appeared to be very elated while the other one seemed to be sad and suffering from a bad self image. So that problem will be solved with the new format. We won't have any matches. The only space requirement will be that it must hold the redesigned award stand that will be all on one level and large enough to accommadate any wrestler who wants to stand there while Nancy hands out the pink participation ribbons. After these "awards" are given out the wrestlers will all sit cross legged in a circle, hold hands while the have milk and cookies and sing Kumbaya.

You can cancel my ticket order.

I check out this forum very rarely, but this subject has caught my attention. To cut to the chase I am sick and tired of hearing grown men and women constantly bitching about OUR President and the war. Understand that ALL you see is what the media or Your political party wants you to see. The media is so corrupt in their reporting. I am not a debater or a scholar but when it comes to my country and supporting her I will not back down no matter what. There are so many issues that I would love to touch on here but I feel that I don't need to because unlike some of you that sit back in Good Ol' Nebraska and have never been outside the state let alone the country that you constantly bitch about, I understand and have a better knowledge of our country and what we are doing so that you can continue to sit back and enjoy your highschool wrestling or whatever you like to do. Just understand one simple thing, when you are constantly complaining about the war and still telling those soldiers you know that you support them after awhile they get confussed about your support for them and your non support for the war. Like I said I am not a scholar nor good at grammer so if this little reply has some flaws in its grammatical style so what. If some of you closed minded Cindy Sheehan loving people are offended by this, tough! Come and do my job for awhile or better yet Be my wife who supports me and takes care of my family while I am constantly gone. To all of you who support the War on Terrorism THANK YOU VERY MUCH you actually support the soldiers.
De Oppresso Liber

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Red Rocker,

To Frank Ryan and Agratefulsoldier, you are both welcome to your opinions on democrats/republicans and the war on terror. Good for you, I respect your opinions. You are both entitled to them. But I do have a few points I would like to make as well.....

To Frank Ryan: I need to clarify myself a little bit on some of my posts. My dad was a union man and he always talked to me about the problems he faced working in packing plants (which also my mother worked in as well). The union that they belonged to fought hard for higher wages, safety improvements, etc. After talking about unions and things of that nature, my father would talk about the magical 1980's with everyone's favorite President, Ronald Reagan. It was amazing, my dad thought, that how can he make more money in the late 1970's working at a packing plant than he could during the 80's. Ronald Reagan simply broke the unions was the main reason for that. The airline traffic controllers, United Autoworkers, and Greyhound bus drivers were a few unions that were broke just to name a few. When I talk of the little man, I'm talking about the men and women that bust their butts for an hourly wage, not the people that sit on their behinds when they can work. Who honestly wants anyone to sit around and collect a paycheck without doing anything. Just because I consider myself a "democrat" doesn't mean I want people taking my hard earned money as well. I'm a teacher and coach, I need my money. My mom and dad made more in the seventies and early eighties (circa 1980, 1981) at their packing plant jobs killing cows than they did in the late eighties and early nineties. I know because I lived in the same house that they did. You argue that if we lived in a utopian society we could contribute more to national defense. Well of course. Wouldn't it be great to live in a place that everyone had good jobs? Well yes it would, but it will never happen. Also, to answer your question if everyone that started in the same place economically if they would be equal 5, 10, 15 years from now, and the answer is obviously no, but its not just "republicans" that would do better and "democrats" that would do worse. I believe that is what you were implying there. Some would improve their status, others wouldn't. We are going around in circles Frank Ryan and I know that you won't agree with everything that I say but that's okay. I'm giving you my two cents worth. When I say "the little man", I don't mean the people that sit on their behinds. Hopefully that helps you see where I come from.

To Agratefulsoldier: I am glad that we have people like you fighting for our freedom. I do support your cause, and I believe that it is a noble one. The U.S. will always have enemies, and the U.S. will always need to have strong people like yourself fighting for our freedom. But the very same thing that you are fighting for, freedom, means a lot of things. In this country we have the right to say what we want about who most of the time. We are free to quietly criticize leaders and praise them. We do not have to just praise leaders. I honestly think the people of the U.S. were mislead when our military invaded Iraq. I still believe that today. But just because I don't believe that we should have been there in the first place doesn't mean that I don't want our troops to keep fighting against the insurgents in Iraq. We are winning against the insurgents there because of our great military that we have, contrary to what the media says. I just do not agree with the President on why we were there in the first place. It doesn't mean that I want the military to fail. I also believe that if everyone in America would have a mandatory military service requirement, I think a lot of the so-called "republicans" that claim they would go and fight for America "in a heartbeat" would not do that. If everyone had a mandatory military requirement, I think that we would look at our role in the world quite differently and also respect the military more. What I am trying to say is that I do respect what the military does, but I question our President of the U.S. If that means that some people don't like me, well then so be it. God be with you Agratefulsoldier when you are in harms way. Thanks for your comments.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Red Rocker,

To Red Sox I did not reply to this issue for any " thank you's" from people, I am just frustrated with Americans who don't understand what is going on in this world let alone America. The media is the one that wants people to think that we were misled into this war. There will always be a flaw when in comes to Human Intelligence. You are right when you say that Freedom means alot of things. Freedom means that you don't have to quietly critcize our leaders, you can scream the criticizm out loud all you want. It seems that anything anymore anyone can do. It is freedom that allows us not to have a mandatory military service term. It is freedom that gives us the opportunity to speak our minds on anything. I respect your opinion as well as those opinions of anyone else that differs from mine. Everyone in this country needs to get out of the Democratic/Republican Party mindset and realize that this is " ONE NATION UNDER GOD" Politics are giving this country the opportunity to go in reverse because there are to many selfish people in DC. I truely pray that Americans would understand why they have all of their Freedoms and it is not the Politicians. I pray that we never see another 9/11 because if their is ever another one it will not only be 3 areas that are directly affected and after 5 years people will not be able to simply forget about what happened or complain about the Government. I might now be rambling and I am sorry for that. I realize that we all have different opinions and skills and each one of us is free to utilize those skills and those freedoms. As it seems anymore in this country every subject is a "touchy" one so if I offend anyone tough crap. I am not a politician nor am I surgoen so I wouldn't tell them how to do there job. If you have no idea about a subject you are obviously welcome to your own opinion, just try not to shape others. As for those of us whom know a little about a little we will continue to do what we do. Thanks for perking up my day. This was fun.
De Oppresso Liber

I needed something today to do as well since we had a dual tournament last night and I am bored out of my mind! Oh well I've had my fun today as well. Go Chiefs and Cowboys!

quote:

6

Agrateful Soldier-- I do support both you AND the war on terrorism. I don't like the war but know it is necessary. We are so spoiled in this country because we have not had to fight a war within our boundaries since the civil war. But unfortunately there aren't many of us left that remember that war. Then on 9/11 we were shocked to think an enemy would have the audacity to attack us on our soil and the country united and swore that wouldn't happen again. But unfortunately there aren't many of us that remember that war either. After 6-8 months many of the people who swore that we would never be caught napping again (including a large number of politicians on both sides of the aisle who had voted for the war) began listening to all of the media bunk about how there was now longer a threat, the war was being mishandled, etc and began to drift away. Fortunately, you and the other men and women of our military didn't drift away. And just as fortunately the warriors back home like your wife, who have the constant fear that that they will get that dreaded visit and also must listen to the media drivel about how wrong we are to be defending ourselves, haven't drifted away either. And fortunately George Bush has had the courage to disregard the polls and focus groups and the media drivel and say that we will defend ourselves. Has he made all of the right decisions? No. Has any president every made all of the right decisions in any war in our history. No. This country hasn't become the greatest country in the history of the world because we always made the right decisions. It became great because we made what we thought was the right decision for the circumstances of the time and then forged ahead to make that decision be the right one. Granted, we veered a few degrees when unexpected things arose but we still kept the ultimate goal in sight. And we didn't turn tail and run in the opposite direction when getting to that goal became unpopular. I think our military still has that mindset and I will be forever grateful for that. The war against the terrorism will probably never end because there are so many radicals willing to step up when the old ones go down. Thank you for fighting that war on their soil so we don't have to fight it on ours.

GOD BLESS YOU AND YOUR COMRADES IN ARMS. Come home safe so you can enjoy the freedoms that you are helping preserve for all of us.


RED SOX-- Thank you for responding to my post. On several occasions I have made a post about things, mostly wrestling topics, that I thought were rather controversial and nobody responded. I had decided that either my computer wasn't connecting with the rest of you or my posts were so ridiculous that nobody wanted to validate them by answering. Now let's address your answer to my post. You stated that your parents made more money in the early 80's than in the 90's. Did you factor in how much more they had to make in the early 80's when they were faced with 12% inflation and 20% interest rates? If Reagan had continued the economic policies that gave us those inflation and interest rates your parents would have made much, much more money in the 90's than they did in the early 80's. But what would it have been worth in buying power? Some people were hurt (but not fatally) by Reagan's policies. Would the country be better off today if the high inflation and high interest rates had continued? I think not.

You stated that when I asked if the redistribution of wealth would continue into the future that I had implied that the Republicans would all do better and the Democrats would do worse. Not so. I did not mention either party, primarily because there are no true Republican or Democratic Parties remaining. If Harry Truman were alive today he would probably either be an Independent or start a new party. The same is probably true of Teddy Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan. Most of the politicians of today seem to lean toward taking us back to the old European model of a professional ruling class. It doesn't make any difference if they are Republican, Democrat, Libertarian, or Green, those people who set making money and accumulating wealth as a high priority and work hard toward that goal will soon have more money than the people who aren't as interested in making money and accumulating wealth.

Another point you made was that it would be great if everyone had a great job, but that it would never happen. I agree that it will never happen but I'd like to ask this question. Is the percentage of people with good jobs higher or lower now than in the 50's and early 60's? I think a much higher percentage of Americans had a good job 50 years ago than now that wonderful word "Entitlement" has crept into our national vocabulary and way of thinking. Do any of your wrestlers feel that they are entitled to be a state champion this year? Do you think they would be thrilled to stand on the massive awards platform and get their pink participation ribbon? If you are who I think you are I've seen your teams in action and know how tough and aggressive they are. I think that before they bought into the participation idea they would go out for basketball and lobby to get the foul limit increased from 5 to 55.

You did not address my question about who might holding the little guy back. Do you think it is the conservative businessman or is it the politician who needs a power base?

You stated that you are a teacher and coach and need your money. I was also a teacher and coach for 13 years and for about the first half of that time I was a Democrat. Then I began to realize how much better off I would be if I stopped trying to maximize what the government could do FOR me and start trying to minimize what the government could do TO me. Once again, if you are who I think you are I don't see your wrestlers as the kind who sit around moaning that it isn't fair that Skutt wins so much, "Let's see how we can bring them down to our level". I think your kids are more inclined to say, "Let's work to get our team up to Skutt's level".

That's why I am amazed when coaches and athletes profess to be liberals. Many years ago a friend asked me to fill in on his slow pitch softball team because they had several players who couldn't come to the game. I got lucky and hit one out. As I rounded the bases I saw the defense was headed for their dugout and our team was taking the field. They told me that the rule was that the third home run of an inning was considered an out and we had already hit 2 that inning. I didn't stick around for my pink participation ribbon and never went back.

Good luck to you and your team.

Well after thinking about a few things last night and this morning, I've come to a conclusion Frank Ryan. Does anyone really hold anyone back? The answer simply is no. I guess that I have never really thought about that before. Did anyone make my parents work in packing plants? No. Could they have tried to work somewhere else? Yes. Its the choices that we make in life at an early age that determines where we will fall in the income bracket (most of the time). Did my parents go to college? No. Did they receive any special training for any type of career? No. Were they both capable of going to some type of school to further themselves? Yes. A vast amount of people simply have "life" happen to them in the form of debt, kids, etc. that forces people to make choices on how they live. From there, people that have to work their butts off at crummy jobs have their perceptions schewed a little bit. I suppose it was easy to blame someone else for my family's problems rather than what got them there in the first place. That's what is good about America. We all have a good shot at doing something good with our lives. I'm the first one to graduate from college on either of my parents sides of family, and I also got my master's degree at 25. Its about the choices that we make that determines where we are in life, not some President, political party, or anything else to do with that sort of thing. I appreciate you Frank Ryan for making me see that.

As for the rest of your reply, I understand that there is a sense of "entitlement" creeping throughout our society and that of course is a very bad thing. I see kids that I teach drive 25,000 dollar vehicles to school and every kid now has a cell phone. That isn't right. But what I am trying to figure out is I don't think its "liberals" or "conservatives" that have done this to our society. I believe all of us have contributed in some way, shape, or form. How many of us have given our kids a toy, a way to get out of chores, or not disciplined them enough when they surely need the discipline or the extra punishment to get the right lesson learned? I believe all of us are guilty of that from time to time. The problem is too many parents are not hard enough on their kids, conservatives and liberals alike. That creates the sense of entitlement, I believe, in our society. My parents were very tough on me throughout my schooling days. We didn't have anything, so I didn't get anything. Anything I got I had to work for. I'm sure that's the same with MANY people that read these columns because they love wrestling and wrestling teaches us those things. So anyways, thanks for making me see something a little different this Sunday morning. Maybe I'll be one of those guys that turns conservative when he hits 35. Who knows? All I know is that I'm learning something, and I suppose that's the point of conversation with another person......

You can rest assured the minute you get into an argument about Bush with a liberal it will eventually lead to "Bush is a chimp."

Or if you get into an arguement about Clinton with a conservative it will eventually lead to "Clinton was the moral scum of the earth". Even though over half of the marriages end in divorce in America and millions of people cheat on their spouses every single day. Its fun now that liberals on this board are finally fighting back against the conservatives. The "Back Nine" is starting to become a pretty interesting place to talk politics now.

quote:

Originally posted by Red Sox:
The "Back Nine" is starting to become a pretty interesting place to talk politics now.

As long as you take care of the language you use, Coach.

quote:

Originally posted by Red Sox:

Maybe I'll be one of those guys that turns conservative when he hits 35. Who knows? All I know is that I'm learning something, and I suppose that's the point of conversation with another person......

RED SOX-- When I read this line it reminded me of a quote that was attributed to Winston Churchill. I don't know if he really said it but it's interesting to ponder. "If you aren't a liberal when you are 21 you don't have a heart. If you aren't a conservative when you are 35 you don't have a brain".

Please email me at frank-ryan@cox.net and let me know if you are who I think you are. And I'm not sure why I think I know who you are. It must have been something you said in a post or what someone said about you in a post.

Frank Ryan and Red Sox--What a great discussion. I am an ex wrestling coach (25 years) and teacher. Even though I almost always agree with Frank and Braveheart, what a wonderful country we live in, where we can have debates and discussions without bloodshed, and still go away friends! Thanks to both of you for your thougtful and thought provoking contributions.

Exactly. That's why I love this site and the "Back Nine" section. There are tons of people that I wouldn't get to hear what they had to say on these topics in any other place. It seems to me that there are a lot of very educated wrestling coaches and fans out there! I love to read these columns!

Democratic Tax Refund

If you don't understand the Democrats' version of tax refunds, maybe this will help explain it:

50,000 people go to a baseball game, but the game was rained out. A refund was then due.

The team was about to mail refunds when a group of Congressional Democrats stopped them and suggested that they send out the ticket refunds based on the Democrat National Committee's interpretation of fairness.

Originally the refunds were to be paid based on the price each person had paid for the tickets. Unfortunately that meant most of the refund money would be going to the ticket holders that had purchased the most expensive tickets. This, according to the DNC, is considered totally unfair. A decision was then made to pay out the refunds in this manner:

People in the $10 seats will get back $15. After all, they have less money to spend on tickets to begin with. Call it an "Earned Income Ticket Credit." Persons "earn" it by having few skills, poor work habits, and low ambition, thus keeping them at entry-level wages.

People in the $25 seats will get back $25, because it "seems fair."

People in the $50 seats will get back $1, because they already make a lot of money and don't need a refund. After all, if they can afford a $50 ticket, they must not be paying enough taxes.

People in the $75 luxury box seats will each have to pay an additional $25 because it's the right thing to do."

People walking past the stadium that couldn't afford to buy a ticket for the game each will get a $10 refund, even though they didn't pay anything for the tickets. They need the most help. Sometimes this is known as Affirmative Action.

Now do you understand?

If not, contact Representative Nancy Pelosi, Senator Ted Kennedy, Senator John Kerry, or Senator Hillary Clinton for additional explanation.

Oh Braveheart whatever will we do with you? You will forever now be known as "pot-stirrer"

Saw a Lewis Black DVD the other day and he had something interesting to say about the upcoming 2008 election.

His suggestion -- and it's a good one -- is that both the Republicans and Democrats should sit this one out and, instead, we put a monkey on an air plane, put a parachute on him and push him out of the plane. When the monkey parachutes down to the ground, he goes up to the first person he sees and takes that person's hand...THAT is the person who should be our next President.

That just might let the U.S. have an honest president for a change!!!

It sure would beat anything either party has offered in the last half century -- or is offering for 2008.