Note to NWI is incorrect...

I have talked with NSAA officials in the past regarding this issue, particularly as it applies to the entry in the bylaws that you quoted (and, BTW, thank you for refreshing everybody's memory on that...I was going to do the ol' copy/paste on that previously but it slipped my mind).

I asked if talking to a student about your program is a violation of said bylaw, and I was told that it is not. First off, it would be difficult -- if not impossible -- to prove without witnesses, phone records, etc., and it would also tread into some potential free speech issues, which is a whole 'nother monkey.

Also, the NSAA is not a government agency, so I believe they really don't have a whole lot of power in demanding such things as a coach's cell phone records or tuition payments by parents. They could ask an accused coach to provide those records, but my guess is that coach would tell the NSAA to go pound sand.

This individual did go on to say that, in their view, talking to a kid could be considered unethical, but unless some kind of plausible offer is made -- whether it's free tuition or the promise of a starting position -- it does not violate the NSAA bylaws as they are written.

Now if somebody were to add to this bylaw to take talking to a would-be transfer out of the equation, then we'd be getting somewhere...

And Catholics is right -- private schools MUST recruit students in order to pay the bills. They don't rely on your tax dollars to support their teacher salaries, paper clips and keeping the lights and water on. They rely on the church and tuition paid by students to fund their schools.

This is a topic that can be discussed forever. Until someone has proof that something is not right in regards to a "private" school, I think people should just concentrate on themselves getting better.

I've seen kids from my area head to Skutt for various reasons, never once for "recruiting". Coach Hildebrant & Nebe are just great ambassadors of the sport. Kids want to be around them, in turn, those Coaches win. Flat out, enough said.
They take their kids on wrestling trips out of state, they hold club camps for their wrestlers, they make their kids feel like champions even if they may not be "the cream of the crop". I was a product of a public school, my high school coach was too busy to push us like that. I see that from a lot of public school coaches, they are inseason coaches. Private school coaches have the luxury of getting total support from the parents in this regard (obviously they want their kid to succeed so they will pay for camps/trips to become a better athlete).
I don't know if this makes any sense, but I see the whole issue comes down to the committment level of the program (which includes the kids and most definately the coaches).

quote:

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Originally posted by knightswrestling:
This is a topic that can be discussed forever. Until someone has proof that something is not right in regards to a "private" school, I think people should just concentrate on themselves getting better.

I've seen kids from my area head to Skutt for various reasons, never once for "recruiting". Coach Hildebrant & Nebe are just great ambassadors of the sport. Kids want to be around them, in turn, those Coaches win. Flat out, enough said.
They take their kids on wrestling trips out of state, they hold club camps for their wrestlers, they make their kids feel like champions even if they may not be "the cream of the crop". I was a product of a public school, my high school coach was too busy to push us like that. I see that from a lot of public school coaches, they are inseason coaches. Private school coaches have the luxury of getting total support from the parents in this regard (obviously they want their kid to succeed so they will pay for camps/trips to become a better athlete).
I don't know if this makes any sense, but I see the whole issue comes down to the committment level of the program (which includes the kids and most definately the coaches).

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wait, What's the point of this site? oh yeah discussing topics that can go on forever

and also NWI, the point isnt how easy it is to get around the recruiting rules like you are saying about how impossible it is to get phone records and such.... The point is that it IS illegal

"This is a topic that can be discussed forever. Until someone has proof that something is not right in regards to a "private" school, I think people should just concentrate on themselves getting better."

Nuff said...

George, you obviously have some some strong feelings about how this all works. That's good. You're spending your spare time doing something meaningful. But let's just say for discussion's sake that we include schools with open enrollment into this topic, to be fair. Publicly funded, but not so geographically limited. For an example we could use the city of Lincoln. I could have an address in Lincoln, Denton, wherever, and still enroll in any Lincoln public high school. How you would factor this in to your original topic (separating public and private schools)? Seems like there should be a hypothetical provision for this in your plan.

And I hate to beat a dead horse, but George, if you have facts and knowledge of something ILLEGAL that is going on, you have a responsibility to report it. You need to organize these facts that you've been compiling and stick it to 'em. That seems to be the most obvious course of action. And don't give us that "I'm only 18 and can't write or speak" crap. A product of Lincoln PUBLIC Schools can do better than that!

First of all this is Shane not George, Georges name is Trancending04

2nd of all I really don't have strong feelings about this at all, it's not really a big deal because there are much more important things in life than making sure a few coaches that ask athletes to go to their schools, and talk to the kids dad's at little kid tournaments about the benifits of sending their kid to a private school, gets fried... not really that important, But this has to be one of the best topics to debate that pops up on this bored....

quote:

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Originally posted by Curious G:
George, you obviously have some some strong feelings about how this all works. That's good. You're spending your spare time doing something meaningful. But let's just say for discussion's sake that we include schools with open enrollment into this topic, to be fair. Publicly funded, but not so geographically limited. For an example we could use the city of Lincoln. I could have an address in Lincoln, Denton, wherever, and still enroll in any Lincoln public high school. How you would factor this in to your original topic (separating public and private schools)? Seems like there should be a hypothetical provision for this in your plan.

And I hate to beat a dead horse, but George, if you have facts and knowledge of something ILLEGAL that is going on, you have a responsibility to report it. You need to organize these facts that you've been compiling and stick it to 'em. That seems to be the most obvious course of action. And don't give us that "I'm only 18 and can't write or speak" crap. A product of Lincoln PUBLIC Schools can do better than that!

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also givin you're situation you're right... but what does one of the public schools have to offer that the other 5 dont? it's all free education... Private schools have leverage on the fact of, , better facilities, and better coaching...

This message has been edited. Last edited by: S0404,

K-12 Public School Teachers (2001-2002)
Number of teachers: 21,004
Average salary: $36,236


Aquinas, West Pt. CC, Bergan base salary is around 20,400.

So I would say that Public school teachers get paid more.

quote:

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Originally posted by guest:
K-12 Public School Teachers (2001-2002)
Number of teachers: 21,004
Average salary: $36,236


Aquinas, West Pt. CC, Bergan base salary is around 20,400.

So I would say that Public school teachers get paid more.

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wow, thx for that stat, poor assumption on my part

Guest,
In some cases, you are correct. However, when I left Skutt and came to Lincoln, I took a pay cut of around $4,500 a year in teaching salary. The teachers at Skutt are only one year behind the salaries of OPS. Also S0404, you should know that teachers in private/catholic schools do not get credit for those years of service when they retire, as a portion of the salary does not go to the state retirement fund. In other words, I have to buy back the 5 years of teaching I did at Skutt (don't get me wrong, they were great years--I have no regrets).
There are advantages for both public and private schools. I would say there are some public schools that have terrible facilities, and some are very good. In that way, I feel very blessed. At private schools you also don't have to deal with a lot of state/federal legislation (NCLB, certain SPED requirements, etc.)
In other words, both schools have their advantages/disadvantages as far as teaching in them. I've had the pleasure of doing both, and I've had a good experience in both settings.
As far as recruiting goes, I would consider trying to convince another student to come to my school instead of somewhere else as recruiting, but that's just my personal opinion. Like Mikey said, the rule can be interpreted.
My rambling ist endlich zu Ende.

Guest when you are comparing apples to oranges.

The average salary generally takens into account extra duty assignments extended contracts etc, many of which are a percentage of the base salary as well as years of experience and advancement due to earning graduate hours.

The base salary is generally the figure used for a first year teacher with no graduate hours.

So it is an unfair comparision to look at some schools base salary vs the average salary.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Vegas Kid,

It is obvious that there are some inherent advantages to building a program in a catholic school. For those who believe the playing field is even, my experience tells me you're wrong. Catholic schools control the type of kid coming into their school which is a huge advantage in building a team. Not all catholic school's are adapt at doing this, but the traditional powerhouses in a given sport usually have the resources (funding/population/facilities) to give them a huge edge. A public school coach must take what they inheret, they have no control/influence over their student body. Then, the tradition simply feeds on itself. Kids want to be a part of a winner and the elite kids begin to make the average kids better within the room.

Plus, public school coaches can be reprimanded severely for "approaching" kids in a recruitment manner. This is obviously not the case with catholic school coaches, it is part of their job.

I can understand the current feelings of coaches towards some catholic schools. If I was a coach and had brought my next wrestling prodigy through my pee wee & junior high ranks only to have him swept away by a catholic school (Skutt for example)I'd be ticked too. They/their staff & program benefit from a lot of my time, effort, and hard work over the course of several years.
Whether or not it's ethical/unethical is debatable. What's not debatable is the argument as to whether or not it's happening. IT IS! If you don't think so you're either misinformed or lying.

Don't get me wrong...I KNOW that recruiting exists in private AND public high schools in this state. There are some schools who "play the hand they are dealt" and others who have studs "magically appear" at tradition-rich schools.

Part of the difficulty in nailing somebody, though, is the open enrollment law in the state that allows parents to send their kids to schools outside their district. The original concept of this law was to give kids who live in districts with limited resources a chance to transfer to a nearby district with more resources available for their child's interests and needs.

I called it back in the early 1990's when this first was introduced in the Legislature that this would open the doors to recruiting kids for their extracurricular talents more than their education. It probably can't be proved, but I'd be willing to beat that AT LEAST HALF of the kids who transferred did so more for extracurriculr, rather than education, concerns on the part of their deluded parents who think Johnny or Janey is the next Michael Jordan or Mia Hamm.

And to clarify things -- we shouldn't limit our discussion to "Catholic" schools, because there are other church-related and otherwise private schools who are "recruiting" students to keep their doors open.

I wonder if NWI or SO404 had a son that was a superstar wrestler where would you want him to go to school? If he was a superstar football player where would you want him to attend?
If he was the second best miler in the state, where could he go to get better?

Just Curious?

To those who don't think recruiting is going on why don't you ask Mike Troxel the district 4 rep who has first hand knowledge. First his own secretaries daughter who attends Sutherland is being recruited by North Platte St.Pats, second Kearney High caught two Kearney Catholic coaches in there building during the school day recruiting. Now these are facts! The football coaches are for the multiplier and if football wants it, it will be done and it is about time. No people it really doesn't affect wrestling, however some of us have sons that play football and daughters that play volleyball and if you look at the results if they are in a public school then there chances of winning state are slim to none.

Ya' know...I'm kinda funny when it comes to my kid, both the real one and the "what ifs."

Where would I want my standout student-athlete to go if that child were being recruited? I'd want that child to go to the best placed based on these three factors in this order:

1. Where will he/she get the best education that will help him/her grow and achieve for his/her future goals?

2. Where will he/she feel most comfortable -- big school or smaller size, private or public, urban or rural?

3. Where will he/she be able to get the best coaching and opportunities to perform at his/her highest level and help him/her get the kind of exposure that will assist in landing a college athletic scholarship?

As a parent, my focus FIRST is on that child's education. Without that education, all the athletic talent that child possesses isn't going to make a damn bit of difference when he/she makes his/her way out into the real world.

But, once again, I'm kinda funny about my child's education...guess I'm a little more concerned with how they perform on their report card than I am what kind of numbers they put up on the scoreboard. Call me crazy...

quote:

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Originally posted by NWI:
Ya' know...I'm kinda funny when it comes to my kid, both the real one and the "what ifs."

Where would I want my standout student-athlete to go if that child were being recruited? I'd want that child to go to the best placed based on these three factors _in this order:_

1. Where will he/she get the best education that will help him/her grow and achieve for his/her future goals?

2. Where will he/she feel most comfortable -- big school or smaller size, private or public, urban or rural?

3. Where will he/she be able to get the best coaching and opportunities to perform at his/her highest level and help him/her get the kind of exposure that will assist in landing a college athletic scholarship?

As a parent, my focus FIRST is on that child's education. Without that education, all the athletic talent that child possesses isn't going to make a damn bit of difference when he/she makes his/her way out into the real world.

But, once again, I'm kinda funny about my child's education...guess I'm a little more concerned with how they perform on their report card than I am what kind of numbers they put up on the scoreboard. Call me crazy...

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I agree with this post to every extent...

But a school should not be able to advertise to me why my son/daughter should choose their school

First of all, if I hear someone say 'I know for a fact that they recruit', one more time I will puke.
Go do the job and take care of it. Turn them in.

Secondly, Catholic schools recruit, they come to St. Joe's elementary in York to recruit kids to go.
Public schools recruit, McCool has an ad in our movie theater trying to get kids to go there. McCool also goes to St. Joe's elementary to recruit.

Who cares? I agree with monarchman, most of the students at out state private schools are family legacies. Parents went there, then kids etc.

The problem lies in that public schools MUST admit any student who comes. They do not get to pick and choose. So three options exist.

1. Keep it the same, which is fine with me. I and many others enjoy a challenge.

2. Apply a multiplier to Private schools which has been suggested many times.

3. Apply a subtractor to public school enrollment, in which we get to subtract from our attendance numbers, the students who would not be able to attend private schools, because private schools don't offer the services those students need. And subtract those who would not be admitted to private schools based on academic standards or behavioral problems.

This might lead to a little corruption, as people try to label more and more kids.

But as the discussion goes on forever....and ever and going and going

Private schools have another significant advantage and it's why I send my kids to a Catholic school even though I'm not Catholic. For people of faith, religious instruction of their children outside of the home can be important. Public schools cannot do that and are prohibited from teaching certain things that I believe. Also, private schools have better discipline and can reduce distractions better (expel troublemakers, require uniforms, etc.).

Looking at the results posted at the beginning of this thread are statiscal proof that private schools have advantages. It's not right or wrong and I don't blame private schools for taking advantage of those advantages. That is what competition is all about.