Why is it that some coaches after reading about the Papillion situation still talking religion with their athletes? I have been following this thread about church and state, and there are valid arguemnets on both sides. I for one would like to have every wrestler and student in public schools that hear a coach or teacher talking religion in class or in the practice room, go to their administrator and report the offense. Invlove your parents and others to make sure that this practice stops!

I believe in the lord and the truth that he speaks! I am all for my Wednesday and Sunday school classes. But when a coach or teacher crosses the line...they should be reprimanded!
Yea Papillion School Board!

Who is the next to fall?

maybe a po'd coach?

Yes, they should also outlaw all mentions of religion in high school World History and Civilizations classes - especially if a coach is teaching the class. If they don't eliminate all mention of religion we will have another generation that believes that religion actually had and has something to do with history.

Joking aside, public school teachers who wish to talk religion in addition to their subject area should apply to religious schools that subscribe to their personal beliefs. This is the appropriate venue for teaching math and religion on company time. It is not the role of a public school math teacher to witness to their students regarding their religious beliefs during class while accepting a paycheck for teaching math!

Well, if we're REALLY going to take religion out of schools, then maybe we need to eliminate that two-week break that used to be called Christmas Break, but is now the politically-correct Holiday Recess.

Make people who don't wish to acknowledge Christmas go to work and school the week of Dec. 25 and let's see how that plays out.

NWI I think you are on to something. No more Christmas or Easter breaks. That ought to make EVERYBODY happy. Be careful what you ask for ACLU. and the worm turns . . .

That's right...we all put in eight hours on Christmas Eve AND Christmas Day, no more Good Fridays off, either.

In fact, let's take this to a whole new level and make sure we're working on the following days:

-- Martin Luther King Day (If we can't honor the efforts of Jesus Christ to bring peace to mankind, then MLK can't get his props, either)
-- Presidents Day (Slick Willie and Tricky Dick...need I say more?)
-- Columbus Day (Honoring a guy who missed his target by SEVERAL THOUSAND MILES??? On the other hand, without him we wouldn't have Miami)
-- Mother's AND Father's Day (Not an official day off, but why should crappy parents get a pass and spoil the day for the good ones out there?)
-- Valentine's Day (Again, not an official one, but why should we give props out to the art of love and romance when we're too busy promoting hatred?)
-- Fourth of July (Great...another day to promote violence and pollute the environment with all that smoke and spent rocket shells littering the driveway, all in the name of a bunch of non-conformists who felt that war was the only way?)
-- Labor Day (Honoring those of us who are busting our butts by giving those lazy buttheads taking up space in the cubbyhole next to us a day off when they haven't worked a day in their friggin' lives???)
-- New Year's Day (A day off to nurse a hangover??? That's what Sundays are for, aren't they??? After all, if God rested on the seventh day, why shouldn't we, right?)

That leaves us with Memorial Day and Veteran's Day...and those tree-hugging wussies would like to eliminate those days so we don't give props out to those men and women who gave their lives so you and I might be free to make fools out of ourselves by trying to take Christ out of Christmas.

Awww heck...nine hours into 2005 and somebody got me all good and ticked off. I'm going to go make a bowl full of chicken soup and watch bowl games until my cerebellum turns to butterscotch pudding...

u forgot to mention St. Patricks Day, Halloween, All Saints Day, St. Nicks Day, Ash Wednesday, Fat Tuesday. And Thanksgiving.
Valentines Day is for St. Valentine.

And don't forget Red Rocker's birthday. If ANY day should be a national day off, that should be one of them.

Of course, getting Rocker to cop to his actual age would be a trick in and of itself...LOL

Wait a minute! Why should these Jesus haters get Sunday off????? I say, if you don't want God in your life, then, go to school 7-DAYS A WEEK. Then you won't run the risk of some sneaky adult talking you into going to church or something. And hey, if you don't believe in God, then get your slacker butt back to work! You don't need a day to aknowledge The miracle of Creation if you don't believe in the Almighty God!

You have all missed the point! It is about the people that cross the line and talk about religion in their classrooms and practice rooms. We should still celebrate holidays and observe our believes in the correct environment! If a coach or teacher crosses the line...we should report them and have them fired!

Ah, but if we don't want God as a part of our lives, then ALL of the daily perks we get as a result of Jesus Christ's presence in our lives -- INCLUDING the related days off -- should be eliminated.

I believe Jesus once said that you were either for or against him, that there was no middle ground. If we're going to eliminate religion in our lives, then we have to eliminate ALL of it, not just whatever a teacher or coach brings to class or the practice room. You can't have it both ways...it's either/or.

Along those same lines NWI, if we are going to take those daily perks out then we need to get rid of "In God We Trust" on our money, "One Nation Under God" out of our Pledge, and "So Help Me God" out of our courtrooms.

The whole thing is ridiculous. What ever happened to "When in Rome, do as the Romans do". Some people come over from other countries and want us to change our culture just for them. This is still supposed to be a country of majority rules, minority rights.

You're exactly right.

I know thatit may be difficult for many people to believe, but teachers and coaches are actually people... real people with thoughts, morals, values, beliefs, fears, opinions, and intelligence. Teachers and coaches occupy very delicate and important roles in our society. We have bestowed upon them the responsibility to educate our children and prepare them to be responsible and productive citizens.

Education encompasses many different aspects, it's not just the three R's (reading, riting, rithmetic). Religion has played a very important part in the lives of these teachers and coaches, if we force them to leave this behind, we force them to forgo their personhood. We have to allow our teachers to teach, when we strip from them their humanity, they are nothing but a computer... and automatic talking textbook. We need these teachers to be people.

I know that not everyone is going to be a Christian, and you're ignorant if you believe that someone becoming a Christian is going to be a detraction from their character. What teachers and coaches do is very difficult. We force them to give up so much in their lives already, for not so much compensation, we can't keep taking.

Let the teachers teach, they aren't going to be able to preach from a pulpit in the front of their classroom. What little religion they are able to bring will do nothing but good for their students.

God bless every teacher and coach for the outstanding jobs that they do and the godly occupations that they fulfill. As for people like "Messiah", I pray for you. May God bless you and lead you to the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

If you have a coach or teacher that talks religion, turn them in! If you want religion go to church! Not School!

(Blasphemous Login name)=Jim Rome=BB=Pat Robertson=Billy Graham=St. Paul etc.?

Sorry this is long,but to totally understand this issue,we all need a history lesson:

Consider education,in this country as it was as the time of our Founding Fathers.

From the New England Primer,which was basically their elementry level reading textbook.The book begins by teaching the ABC's,then about a quarter of the way through the book,there is a lesson teaching a memory verse for every letter of the alphabet.

A..A wise son makes a father glad,but a foolish son is the heaviness of his mother.
B..Better is little with the fear of thr Lord,than great treasure and trouble therewith.
C..Come unto Christ all you who are heavy ladden...
D..Do not the abominable thing which I hate sayeth the Lord.
E..Except a man be born again,he cannot see the kingdom of God.
F..
G..
H.. etc,etc.

In the back of this first grade reader are these questions:
1. What is the fifth commandment?
2. What is forbidden in the fifth Commandment?
3. What is required in the sixth Commandment?
4. Etc,etc.

John Quincy Adams went through this Education system,and at the age of fourteen recieved a Congressional Diplomatic appointment to the court of Cathrine the Great of Russia as secretary to the Ambassador.He later went on to become an Ambassador,under George Washington,and John Adams,Secretary of State,US Representative,US Senator,and the sixth President.While president,on July 4th,1837 he said to the people of America,"Why is it that next to the birthday of the Savior of the world,your most joyous and most venerated festival returns on this day?Is it not that in the chain of human events,the birthday of our nation is indissoluably linked with the birthday of the Savior? That it forms a leading event in the Redeemers mission upon the earth?That it laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity?"
It goes on for 60 pages and he stresses that the biggest victory won in the American Revolution was that Christian principles and Civil government would be tied together with what he called an unsoluable bond.
Today we're told the Founding Fathers wanted separation.That is NOT what he said.
John Jay,the first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court declared "Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers,and it is the duty, as well as the privelege and interest of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."
George Washington's farewell adress once appeared as a main school textbook for over 100 years.It was taught that his adress was the most significant political speach ever delivered to a nation.In it he reminded America what had brought us to success, and what must be done to continue it.In it he pointed out that the two foundations for political prosperity in America are religion and morality,and that noone could be called an American patriot, who attempted to separate polotics from it's two foundations.Washington went on to say, "Of all the disposition and habits which lead to political prosperity' religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism,who should labor to subvert these great pillars."
Our Founding Fathers delivered us a system of government which has enjoyed unprecadented success.We are now the world's longest ongoing constitutional republic.230 years under the same document,and form of government.During those 230 years France has had 11 different forms of government.Italy has had 51 different forms of government.Why has it worked? What was the source of our Founding Fathers ideas?
In a study at the University of Houston political science professors asked why?They felt if they identified the source of the Founders ideas,they could collect the writings from the Founding Fathers era, and see who they were most quoting.During the 10 year study they collected 15000 writings.They discovered that the Founders quoted 3154 direct quotes. From Baron Charles de Montequien 8.3% of the time.Sir William Blackstone's Commentary on Law, 7.9% of the time,and John Locke 2.9% of the time.They discovered thr Founders directly quoted scripture 4 times more than Montequien or Blackstone, and 12 times more than Locke.Of the total quotes,34% were directly from scripture, and 60% were from Christian men.It is saie that revivalist Charles Finney became a Christian while studying Blackstones Commentary on Law because it contained so much scripture.History later labeled Finney the father of the second great revival.Many componants of our form of government can be shown to have their source in Biblical concepts.Examples would be our three branches of government Isaiah 33:22,the logic for our separation of powers from Jeremiah 17:9,and the basis for tax exemption for churches from Ezra 7:24.
The Congretional Record on September 25,1789 shows a discussion of II Chronicals 6 led to declaring the first Thanksgiving holiday.This Biblical heritage handed down to us was so well understood,from the early years of our nation,and the writings of our Founding Fathers so well known,that in later years the Supreme Court ruled on the Founders intentions
in the case Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States (1892)
"Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon,and must embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind."the court goes on "It is impossible for it to be otherwise.In this sense,to this extent,our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian." This case was not long,only 16 pages in the court record,but the court provided 87 different historical precedents for it's conclussions.At the conclusion of these 87, the court explained that it could site many more,but certainly 87 were sufficient for us to conclude that our laws and our institutions must be based upon,and must include the teachings of Christ.
In 1844 a school in Philidelphia announced that it would teach it's students morality,but not religion.The school said it didn't need Christianity and the Bible, and that it could teach it's students morality without them.(like schools today!This ploicy caused the case Vidal v. Girrard 1844.In the case,the Supreme Court told the school "Why may not the Bible, and especially the New Testement, be read and taught as a divine revelation in the schools,it's general precepts expounded,and it's glorious principles of morality inculcated?Where can the purest principles of morality be learned so clearly, so perfectly as from the New Testement.
In a 1811 case People v. Ruggles,the court made a ruling, "Whatever strikes at the root of Christianity tends manifestly to the dissolution of civil government."
This case was against a man who wrote out and distributed vulgar attacks against Christ and His teachings.It was a deliberate and planned act.The man had taken the time to write out the attacks and distribute them.In them he attacked Christ, His teachings, and the Bible.The court explained in it's decision, that the problem with the man's writings,was it was an attack against Christ....Christianity...was an attack on the foundation of the country.He was sentenced to 3 months in prison, and a $500 fine.This was in 1811,two decades after the First Amendment was in place.The First Amendment, never intended to separate Christian principles from government,yet today we so often here the First Amendment coupled with the phrase 'separation of church and state'.The First Amendment simply states, "Congress shall make no law respecting a establishing of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".The words 'separation of church and state'appears in no founding documents.Though many recognize the phrase separation of church and state', few know it's source,but it is important to know it's origin.The process of drafting the First Amendment made the intent of the Founders abundantly clear.Before the final wording was approved,the amendment went through nearly a dozen interations and discussions.The discussions recorded in the Congretional Record on June 7-September 25,1789 made clear their intent: We do not want to have a single religious denomination running the country,we want God's principles, but not a single denomination.
This is also proven by the 1799 ruling in the case Runkel v. Winemiller, "By our form of government,Christian religion is the established religion,and all sects and denominations are placed on the same equal footing.
In 1801 the Danbury Baptist Association, of Danbury Conneticut,heard a rumor,that the Congregational Association was going to be named THE national denomination.The rumor distressed them greatly,and they fired of a letter to President Thomas Jefferson voicing their concern.On Janruary 1,1802, Jefferson wrote back assuring the Baptists "The First Amendment has erected a wall of separation between church and state."They need not fear an establishment of a national denomination, for while the wall of separation would protect the church from government control, there always would be open and free religious expression of all orthadox religious practices, for true religious duties never the purpose of government. The government would interfere with a religious activity only if it was a direct menence to the government or the overall peace and good order of society.Later the courts identified such threats as things likehuman sacrifice,polygomy,bygomy,or the advocation of imorality or licencious behavior.

continued...

If these activities were to occur in the name of religion,then the government would interfere,for these were activities that threatened public peace and safety.Today all that is heard of Jeffeson's letter is the phrase 'separation of church and state', without the context, or the explaination given in the letter.The clear understanding of the First Amendment for a century and a half, was it prohibited establishing a single national denomination.National rulings, and policy in that time always reflected that interpretation.
In 1853, a group petitioned congress to separate Christian principles from government.They desired a total separation for church and state,with the outcome being getting rid of Chaplains in Congress, the House, and the military.The court studied it for over a year to determine if it would be possible to separate Christian principles from government.Both the House and the Senate Judiciary Committees returned with similar reports.On March 27,1854,(exerpts) from the House Judiciary Report, "Had the Founding Fathers, during the Revolution, a suspicion of any attempt to war against Christianity,that Revolution would have been strangled in it's cradle....At the time of the adoption of the Constitution and it's amendments,the universal sentiment was that Christianity,should be encouraged,but not any one sect.In this age, there is no substitute for Christianity...That was the religion of the Founders of the republic and they expected it to remain the religion of their decendents." Two months later they added,"The great vital and conservative element in our system,is the belief of our people in the pure doctrine and the divine truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
In 1878 the court in a case Reynolds v. United States the court again quoted a lengthy segment of Jefferson's letter to rule it was permissible to maintain Christian values and principles in official policy.
For the next 70 years, Jefferson's letter fell into disuse and obscurity until 1947, where in a case of Eversen v. Board of Education,the court for the first time did not use Jefferson's entire letter, but only selected eight words from it. "The First Amendment has erected "a wall of separation between church and state'.That wall must remain high and impregnable."This was a new philosophy for the court.Why did the court quote Jefferson's letter completely out of context,and quote only eight of it's words?It might be explained by Dr. William James, (the father of modern phychology) when he stated,'There is nothing so absurd but that if you repeat it often enough people will believe it."This statement precisely describes the tact used by the court following it's 1947 announcement.The court began regularly to speak of a "separation between church and state", saying "this is what the Founders wanted,separation between church and state.This is their great intent.The courts continued on this track so steadily that in 1958 in the case of Baer v. Kolmorgan,one of the judges in a dissenting oppinion wrote warning that"continueing to talk about the "separation between church and state" would make people think that it was part of the Constitution.The court continued to talk about separation until June 25,1962 when in the case Engel v. Vitale the court delivered it's first ruling which completely separated Christian principles from Education,and the court sruck down school prayer.
This was the turning point.For 170 years prior to that case,the court defined 'Church' as being a federally established denomination.This 1962 case redefined 'church' to mean any religious activity performed in public.This was NEW DOCTRINE! It is NOT something from the Founding Fathers,and is found in no founding documents.
Here listed some things weve relinquished in recent years since the new doctrine.School prayer was the first to go.Though it had never established a national denomination, and thus had not violated the First Amendment,it became unconstitutional.
Remember earlier in this text where it was stated that in the 1892 case of Church of the Holy Trinity v. United States the court quoted 87 different precedents to maintain the inclusion of Christian principles in our laws and institutions.Well,the 1962 case was totally opposite.It was the first case in history to use no precedents.It quoted no previous legal case or historical incident.By the end of 1963, in two subsequent cases,the court also removed Bible reading,and religious instruction from schools.The court in one of these 1963 cases Abington v. Schempp wrote"If portions of the New Testement were read without explaination,they could be and...had been phycologically harmful to the child."So the court for the second time in less than a year,without quoting legal precedent,ruled that Bible teaching had to come out of the schools because it caused phycological damage to children.In 1965 in Reed v. Van Hovan the court ruled children could say a prayer over their lunch at school so long as know one else was aware of it.(what?)In DeKalb v. DeSpain 1967,the court ruled a 4 line nursury rhyme was unconstitutional because although it didn't have the word 'God' in it,if someone were to hear the rhyme, they might think it was talking about 'God'.In Stone v. Graham 1980,the court ruled that " If the posted copies of the Ten Commandments are to have any effect at all,(by hanging on the wall), it will be to induce the schoolchildren to read,meditate upon,perhaps to venerate and obey,the Commandments...[which] is not a permissable... objective."Now for the court to say obeying the Commandments is unconstitutional,they are saying that the Founding Fathers would have opposed them.Look at this quote from James Madison,(the chief architect of the constitution), "We have staked the whole future of American civilization not upon the power of government,far from it.We have staked the future of all of our political institutions...upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."

Here's what has happened since that fateful decision in 1963.
For decades prior to 1963,the statistic of births to unwed mothers remained steady.From 1963 to 1990 the rate went up 550%.

since 1963,incidence of Sexually Transmitted Disiese,up 226%

Premarital sex activity,up 365% Divorce had declined for years prior to 1963,since it is up 117%

Unmarried couples living together,up 536%

SAT scores which never had gone up or down for more than two consecutive years,after 1963 plumeted 18 consecutive years

Violent crime,up 794%

SAT es at private Christian schools are on average 80 points higher than public schools. The USA is #1 in the world in Violent Crime,Divorce,Voluntary abortion,Illegal Drug Use,

We are #1 in the western world in illiteracy, and teen pregnancy.

Thank you Panther.

AMEN PANTHER!! Thank you for all of your research and the time that you took to put all of that on this site!