I do not understand why the second ref on the mat was able to call penalties or any thing for that matter. I saw in one match where the Officiating ref was on one side of the wrestlers and the one who was not officiating was on the other side. The second ref saw a locked hands and called it so there for the main one called it and awarded the points. I feel that if the ref is not in position then its his problem and it should not be called. This is too far. It was bad enough that none of the ref's are on the same page about what and how to officiate. One ref will count back points fast and another one will count alot slower. One will count back points when others would not. There ae rules for a reason and if we expect our wrestlers to follow them then what kind of example are we setting for our kids when they know they are getting screwed. Most of these kids have been wrestling long enough to know what the rules are and what to look for. Its getting to the point where a wrestler is going to have to change his style because of the ref at the time. So not only does the kid need to know his opponent he needs to know each ref and how they ae different. thank you for listening i know that i am not alone in this.

quote:

Originally posted by shawnglobe:
I do not understand why the second ref on the mat was able to call penalties or any thing for that matter. I saw in one match where the Officiating ref was on one side of the wrestlers and the one who was not officiating was on the other side. The second ref saw a locked hands and called it so there for the main one called it and awarded the points. I feel that if the ref is not in position then its his problem and it should not be called. This is too far. It was bad enough that none of the ref's are on the same page about what and how to officiate. One ref will count back points fast and another one will count alot slower. One will count back points when others would not. There ae rules for a reason and if we expect our wrestlers to follow them then what kind of example are we setting for our kids when they know they are getting screwed. Most of these kids have been wrestling long enough to know what the rules are and what to look for. Its getting to the point where a wrestler is going to have to change his style because of the ref at the time. So not only does the kid need to know his opponent he needs to know each ref and how they ae different. thank you for listening i know that i am not alone in this.

Uh, actually, you are alone on this one. If you ever get the chance, pick up a rule book and read what the responsibilities are of the assistant referee. What you describe above is EXACTLY what they are suppose to do during a match, especially the semi's and medal round matches, so that nothing is missed and the calls are made correctly for the sake of the wrestlers.

If you don't like a locked hands call, it's pretty simple: DON'T LOCK YOUR HANDS!

Say What is right. The 2nd ref is to stay directly across from the 1st ref so they have a different angle and can see things the 1st ref doesn't.

Well its good that you only focused on one part of the message. I see that the ref is there for that however this is the first time i have ever seen the second one call stuff. So i guess it must be a new rule. In the past you would see the ref stay to the outside of the mat. The main point is the consistancy of the ref's and how they all will officiate differently and not even close to any other ref. I know you say its a judgement thing but there are guidelines for them to follow.

From above: "...he needs to know each ref..." Truer words were never spoken. Just as each baseball umpire has a different application of the strike zone, so each wrestling ref has a different interpretation of wrestling rules. Some call "fast" pins and some not. Some want shoulder blades and a little more; some not.

Smart coaches don't yell at the ref as though he was an unenlightened simpleton but rather know the referee's style and know that they can learn it by simply asking the ref before the tourny starts; the rules actually demand it. Or by analogy: Instead of arguing about the strike zone just throw'em where the umpire wants 'em.

In sum, unless a wrestler pins his opponent in the dead-center of the mat by pressing the opponent's back and body so hard into the mat that a plaster cast could be created from from the imprint, wrsetlers are subject to the referee's rules interpretation.

Im with you on the consistancy issue. From calling wrestlers out of bounds, to stalling calls, to how fast they count backpoints, each ref seems to have their idea of when to make these calls. Also it seems like some refs love to decide or influence matches with their calls.

Since we see the same refs week after week we have actually started changing our tactics in matches based on who is reffing. We shouldnt have to do this, but unfortunately its neccessary since each ref has his own interpretation of the rules.

quote:

Originally posted by dswitz:
In sum, unless a wrestler pins his opponent in the dead-center of the mat by pressing the opponent's back and body so hard into the mat that a plaster cast could be created from from the imprint, wrsetlers are subject to the referee's rules interpretation.

I've seen some that even that would not get them to call a pin!

It's the luck of the draw and we will never get a lot of "consistency", we are dealing with individuals and their interpretation of the rules. Even officials that belong to the same officials association will call things differently. You have to know how the official calls matches or adapt on the fly and coach your wrestler to take full advantage of the style the official.

Is that a thumbs up---or down?

Great to see you at the State Tournament! Keep it up, too bad we didn't get a chance to visit!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ref,

I'm a huge proponent of having the 2nd ref make calls. Too many times in years past we lost matches on missed calls. In my opinion, having the 2nd guy there to see things only ensures that things are called right.

Agreed that the 2nd ref is a great thing. The thing I love most is to watch a match in which you have no care what so ever in the out come. I call will come up. Both coaches will argue that their wrestler either scored or did not. Both are 100% sure that there is no other way to call the situation.(they are both arguing 100% the opsite of the other) One coach/wrestler/fan base thinks this is a great ref and the other thinks the ref is one of the worst they have ever had. The refs could post on this site that there is no consistency amoung the coaches on what they want. Eagle 1 is correct. Work with what you have. Yes some refs are beter than others. Just like some coaches/wrestlers/fans/...... are better than others.

Some things just cant be changed like how fast a ref counts backpoints, but other things need to be more consistant.

Are you trying to say its ok when one ref lets the match continue until only 1 point of either wrestler is in bounds when another ref will stop the match when one foot goes out? Or its ok when one ref will call stalling when the top wrestler takes more then 2 seconds to try to get the match back to the mat when another ref will wait sometimes close to 10 seconds before he calls the stalling?

Sorry, I cant get on board with that. The ref should not be a focal point in a wrestling match. We, as coaches and wrestlers, should not have to know how a ref makes his calls in order to make a gameplan for a certain match.

Sorry, but wrestling rules allow for referee's reasonable discretion. The only discussion that should take place at the table should be about the misapplication of a specific rule, for example if a ref awards eight points for a near-fall. That would be a simple incorrect rule violation by the official. Other than clear rule violations a ref's judgment matters.

I dont understand how an out of bounds call has anything to do with a referee's reasonable discretion.

Since someone else compared baseball, I will use football. There is no discretion, if the player steps on the white line, its out of bounds, regardless if its a toe or an entire foot. You dont see some refs letting it go just because it was a partial foot out.

I understand sometimes its a safety issue, so they are calling out of bounds early to avoid a potential injury or accident if the mat is small or there is a wall close by. However, I have seen it happen time and time again where one ref will stop the match if they are even close to the line, and another will let it go until their entire bodies are out.

I know the concept of wrestling to the whistle and not letting up at the edge, but when you have a wrestler get points scored on them when they are close to out of bounds, and then their next match the whistle blows it dead when they are in the same position but dont get the points, it just doesnt seem right to me.

Some rules are up for interpretation, but others should be concrete and the refs should be consistant with the calls.

TigerV What you are talking about with the stalling is exactly where you will never never never have consistency. It is stalling when in the ref's judgement one of the wrestlers is stalling, not after some magical amount of seconds in a certain postion. There are a hundred different factors that influence the sitation you discussed. In the two seconds(I agree this is to fast) did the top wrestler do anything at all to adjust to prepare to return the action to the mat or just stand behind. On the other hand the 10 second situation could be the bottom man simply standing and blocking to get the stall call while the top man was attempting to adjust and go for a hold to return. I know of at least two wrestlers that would get to their feet and not do anything other than block until the stall call. That was stalling on them. It was never called that way.

You are asking for consistency in judgment calls. It is not going to happen.

I have seen cases where some refs do take front and center and in makes me sick and frustrated. This is only a few situations and when we coach with these refs on the mat, we tell our guys to not let the ref be a factor.

For the most part the refs to a great job and take way to much blame. The good ones will admit when they make a mistake and own it. I have even heard that a ref at districts went up to a coach and made a point to apologize for a incorrect call the week prior.

It is complaining like this that makes it hard for new people to get into reffing. On some of these calls no matter which they make the call someone is going to be upset. If it is the wrong coach and a newer ref that could have been very good you may have lost that ref after this happens a few times.

I personally thought that this was one of the best set of officials we have had at the State meet. There are always some calls that are a little off, or could go either way, but I didn't see a terrible call all weekend. Granted I didn't see every match, but I just think that we need to give the refs some positive feedback when deserved.

Vbadger, you are correct. I felt the same way you do and in fact the coaches I talked to felt that way. It was one of the best crews I remember having as well. I conveyed my thoughts to one of the officials of the Western Officials group and he told me he'd relay the message.

when did they get rid of the numbers on the refs at state? I know there are refs I wanted to know their names because we do not see them except at state and it would be nice to have their name when we vote for officials. The pictures on the web site work OK but some do not have pictures or represent well on the pictures.

quote:

Originally posted by Cschumacher:
when did they get rid of the numbers on the refs at state? I know there are refs I wanted to know their names because we do not see them except at state and it would be nice to have their name when we vote for officials. The pictures on the web site work OK but some do not have pictures or represent well on the pictures.

It's been 2-3 years since they had the numbers on and I agree, good or bad, everyone needs to know who they are for future reference.

Just want to say that none of my posts were directed at anyone in particular, and definitely no one at the state meet. I agree that the reffing was about as good as I can remember. (Probably because most of the refs I see throughout the season were not reffing this weekend.)

I was just posting in general about my experiences over the last several seasons as a coach.

I am ok with refs being different, that's just sports. All sports have refs that are different from one another that's part of the game. The one rule I would like to see become consistent is the wrestling on the edge of the mat rule. It happens too often, and I think that the only way to become more consistent is to adopt the rule like it is in college with one point of contact still in bounds. I know a lot of HS's have their mats almost touching the walls, so use safety precautions first in that situation. But, we need to become consistent on what is in bounds and what is out of bounds.