AD: Atta boy. It's that attitude that is going to propel Nebraska wrestling all the way to the state line!

quote:

Originally posted by dswitz:
Guest 22: Given that the rules of Fr/G just significantly changed for the first time in many years, please don't go near civilized people until you have been deloused and sterilized (in all it's meanings.) But seriously, the step-out rule is the savior of wrestling and unless your grandmother couldn't understand the simple Sumo rule of "first guy to step out of the circle loses" I'm sure that she would enjoy the forced action inside the circle- no more stalling at the edge of the mat in the classic tradition of the average Folkstyle wrestler: But yes and alas, the world conspiracy to suppress Folkstyle has expanded to Japan!

Panther: Yeah, what's up with Vering's health? Looked totally sucked down and I'm a fan of his. Either illness or overtraining. Don't know much about Gators but will visit with Zac about them. Ironically, NYAC guys are training in Chicago.

Dswitz:

You should quit your day job, and give stand-up a try. You're hilarious.

Were you at the same tournament I was? Maybe you are right, they were'nt just stalling at the edge of the mat anymore. They were stalling all over the mat. They do not call stalling/pasivity anymore. Then again, you are a greco fan so I guess you like that.

Guest 22:

Touche on the passivity observation. However , would you agree with me that the wrestlers were forced to be in contact most of the time, infighting for subtle but crucial position?

Most NE HS wrestlers do not wrestle year round b/c they are multi-sport demensional. I played baseball and footall through HS and wrestled in college. I never would've wanted to wresltle year round. Most don't. Besides the forever changing rules, playing other sports will always limit NE kids to winter wrestling. Nothing wrong with that. If you think NE will be like OH, PN, CA, NJ, etc. you are very mistaken.

AD: You're right- I give up.

dswitz, I'm pretty sure that Henry Ford probably had the same problem convincing people that the car would be the way to go! Good thing some people listened huh? Folkstyle's existance has been one of our countries' biggest hindrances when it comes to competing on the international level. To me the ultimate goal is to wrestle at this level so why wouldn't we as a wrestling community want to do everything we can to get our kids to this level, which would include getting rid of the horse and buggy of our sport- folkstyle!

I'm no self-proclaimed historian crusader, but wouldn't Freestyle/Greco technically be the horse and buggy of our sport? I would think that folkstyle came well after freestyle/greco since wrestling came to the U.S. so much later. Besides, we Americans seem to be so hell-bent in getting other countries to convert to the "American Way"...(Democracy, Christianity, etc...) why should wrestling be any different? Let's just get the rest of the world to convert to our folkstyle to make it easier on us.

I've always thought we would be so much more competitive on the international level if we (Americans) wrestled Freestyle/Greco-Roman at all levels rather than bouncing back and forth with folkstyle. Just my 1/2 cents worth.

radioman, horse and buggy in the sense that it is what is holding us back from success at an international level as was the case with peoples opinions versus the car. Wasn't really going for a timeline comparison as I am not a historian either. So are you saying we should convert the world or we should wrestle international styles?

I do not want to go from folk to free or greco just to beat the Internationals. Folk is just so much better than the two, why take a step backwards? Let's go from baseball to cricket so we can dominate that globally. No thanks.

Crusader...actually, I was being a smart-elic mostly. I doubt that we could ever pull off converting the world, so if we want to compete better on the international level, we would have to wrestle more Greco/Freestyle...but I doubt that in my lifetime will high school and/or college make the switch either. I think too many people are split on this issue.

Comparing baseball to folkstyle wrestling?? Not quite the same situation. The whole world plays baseball, only America wrestles folkstyle. I would much rather watch a the U.S. Nationals than the NCAAs. 3-4 minutes of riding time?? Talk about boring.

It is no secret that the most successful wrestlers participate and embrace off-season wrestling. Where do you think that Aaron Denson and Matt Vacanti make their strides? It's not Dec.-Feb. when they are just pinning all of the "multi-sport athletes" out there who "would not want to wrestle year round."

Folkstyle is like boxing with the big headgear on, so we can make sure that nobody gets hurt.

If free and greco were that popular in the U.S. then everyone would be wrestling that instead of folk. The majority of wrestlers would rather wrestle folk. Watching 1-0 and 1-0 scores is exciting? There is rarely a match in the NCAA's medal rounds where there is over 2 minutes or RT let alone 3 or 4.

Shane, you add a few good things to this forum but this time you are completly off the wall.

Freestyle and Greco is what makes the great folkstylers great. If you believe otherwise, you're dillusional.

"...like boxing with big headgear on." It can't be said any better than that. And, that's exactly the intention of the school administrative types that perpetuate folkstyle: don't let those babies get hurt by those nasty throws. As if football, a game most of us coached, played and love, isn't three times more dangerous. I agree with Lincoln Mcilravey [sp?]: Change the institutions that promote folkstyle and we'll be a world wrestling power for decades.

Does free and greco make wrestlers better in in folkstyle, of course. Will NE ever have most of their wrestlers wrestling in the summer? Never. How many do so now? 2%? I never said free and greco don't make for better wrestlers, I am saying those two styles will NEVER catch on in NE and they will never replace folk in HS and college. If you think free and greco will ever move past folk in HS and college, now who is the "delusional" one? If you want to use big words, please spell them correctly. If you want to be a well rounded wrestler, you should wrestle all three styles and do so year round. There are a handful of NE kids that do that and they are studs (Vacanti and Denson as mentioned). But the other 98% are not interested in free or greco or they are playing baseball, soccer, working, etc. over the sumner. I still sleep well at night even though the US does not dominate the rest of the world in freestyle and greco. I believe most wrestlers, coaches, and even fans prefer folkstyle over free and greco and that it is not even close. Free and greco change their rules all of the time and the refs still do not know what is a point and what is not. The refs in free and greco have too much of a say in deciding matches, IMO.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Alexander_Delarge_655321,

Can't have it both ways Shane. If we want to raise the level of wrestling in the State of Nebraska, we must embrace freestyle and greco. Coaches and parents must stress the importance of those 2 styles if their son has any aspirations of upper level wrestling.

Those that push for and participate in freestyle and greco are improving the quality of wrestling in Nebraska. Those that think

quote:

Originally posted by Alexander_Delarge_655321:
Folk is just so much better than the two, why take a step backwards? Let's go from baseball to cricket so we can dominate that globally. No thanks.

are content with the level of wrestling in Nebraska and have no intentions of making it better. I guess we both know where each other stands don't we?

I sat and watched all but 2 matches at the world trials and I must admit that at first iwas a little intimidated about not knowing the rules. (I have never wrestled greco but did wrestle my share of freestyle.) But by the second round on the first day I had no problem seeing why and how the scoring was awarded. I found myself drawn to watching the greco more because of the potential of the throws in the last minute and I had always before found greco barely bearable to watch. I think that judging by this the rules change has accomplished what it had set out to do, make it more interesting for all to watch by forcing action. and as far as world domination is concerned I don't thinke we will have to worry about that any time soon. But I do think that is a shame to handicap our wrestlers by forcing them to wrestle folkstyle for the first 15-20 yrs of their life to only have to spend the next 10 to get adequate enough to compete at the international level. personally I always thought folkstyle was taylor made for stallers.

First off let me write that I enjoy all styles of wrestling. I don’t just enjoy folk style, freestyle, and Greco Roman; I also enjoy jiu jitsu, judo, sambo, and submission wrestling. To state the obvious I am talking about enjoying all styles as a spectator, but if I had the conditioning or the toughness to compete in one style, I would compete in all styles. I am a total advocate of diversity of wrestling styles. I also believe that competing in diverse styles of wrestling will make one better at each individual style. I also realize that not everyone will want or be able to compete in diverse styles. There are many factors outside of becoming a better “wrestler” which might determine how many styles of wrestling one will be able to compete in. Now some of you might argue that these other forms of wrestling that I mention are not truly “wrestling” but I would contend that your definition of “wrestling” is too narrow. If you have ever watched these styles and if you understand that “wrestling” is broader than a specific set of rules then you would understand that all these styles are truly “wrestling.”

Several questions have been raised in this thread. One question raised is should our scholastic (school sponsored style) be switched from folk style (which by definition simply means a style developed by our culture our folkways) to freestyle and Greco Roman (I did not say to the international styles because all of the other styles I have mentioned are truly international styles i.e. styles across nations). One of the main justifications given for switching to freestyle and Greco Roman is so that we can be more competitive at freestyle and Greco Roman at the international level. Well, why are we not concerned about being competitive at the other international styles? If we had judo or jiu jitsu in our high schools and colleges we would certainly be more competitive at those styles. Judo is even an “Olympic” style of wrestling and I actually believe their might be more international competitors in Judo than there is in freestyle or Greco Roman. You might argue that we cannot have Judo or Jiu Jitsu in the schools because they are too dangerous, but I don’t think those of you who have compared folk style to “boxing with head gear on” would want to make that argument. Maybe you would want to make that argument if consistency in argumentation is not an issue for you.

I for one do not believe we should ever make a decision about what we are going to do in our schools by the criteria of what will make us more competitive in international athletic competitions. I am careful to make the distinction of “athletic competitions” because I will acknowledge that being competitive in the international economy might be a legitimate criteria for deciding what we will do in our schools (though I personally don’t believe it should be the primary concern of our schools). The reality is that only an extremely small percentage of our population will ever be truly competitive at the international level, no matter what styles we compete at in our schools. I believe it would be WRONG to determine what we are going to do in our schools by what will be best for an extremely small percentage of our population. I believe it is great that we have wrestling in our schools because if wrestling is kept in the proper perspective it can truly help students grow into better people. Like the poster says “America needs wrestling” because it can help people be better people. We don’t need wrestling so that we can win more Olympic or World medals. Would I like for the U.S. to win more Olympic and World medals? Sure I would, I cheer for the Americans in international competition and I even get upset when they lose (and in doing so I realize that I am being both nationalistic and ethnocentric when I do so), but I am not willing for our schools to make their decisions on what they will do based on what will help us win matches at the international level.

So we should make our decision on what style we will compete in, in our schools, based on what is best for students. Now what is truly best for the most students that is a much more difficult question to answer. I believe that folk style will have the most positive impact on our students, but I realize that this is a very subjective opinion, and difficult to defend. I realize that my personal preference for folk style shapes my view as to what is best for students. Dswitz would probably choose Greco if he could choose one style for our schools and his choice would, I am guessing, be in large part based on his personal preference. I will say that one of the reasons I prefer folk style to freestyle and Greco Roman is that I believe it is more objective style. By this I mean there is less subjectivity (or interpretation) in the scoring in folk style than there is in free style and Greco Roman. One of the reasons I prefer “wrestling” in general to other sports is that I believe wrestling in a more objective sport (there is much less left up to interpretation) than other sports. If you have ever been upset about who was chosen to start for a team or about how a routine was scored then you will know what I am talking about. Volleyball scoring between teams is fairly objective but who is chosen to start for those teams is very subjective. I am admitting that my argument for folk style in the schools is not that strong (though I believe it is as strong or stronger than any argument being made for free style or Greco Roman) but do not tell me that we should switch to freestyle or Greco Roman in our schools so that we will be more competitive in those style internationally. If you do, I will tell you that we should only have soccer in our schools so that we can be more competitive at what many people claim is the most popular sport in the world.

Now this is another argument, and I realize that I am in the minority view, I also realize that this is not germane to what we should do in our schools, but I don’t believe that switching to freestyle (Greco might be a different question) in our schools would necessarily make us better in freestyle internationally. I actually believe the fact that we wrestle folk style in our schools, if our wrestlers are given time to adapt to freestyle will make them better freestyle wrestlers. I am not alone in this view. I can remember Newt Copple, who at one time was the czar of international wrestling in the U.S. and a great international wrestler himself, telling me that he believed it made the Americans better wrestlers that they knew how to ride. I also remember a post on themat.com made by Randy Lewis where he was arguing that it was not the fact that we were wrestling folk style in our schools that was hurting us on the international level but the fact that our wrestlers were not wrestling enough (probably international styles) in the off season.

So I do believe that wrestlers will certainly improve if they wrestle in the off season. I love for wrestlers on my team to compete in the off season, but I also realize that there are many factors which will determine if a student can compete in wrestling during the off season. Some athletes are not just three sport athletes they are four sport athletes. They might compete in football, wrestling, and track during the school year and baseball during the summer. In many small schools this is not rare thing at all. Would these athletes be better wrestlers if they specialized just in wrestling? Yes I believe they would. Would that be better for them as people? Not necessarily. I think it is a good thing that specialization allows the wrestler with less athletic talent to compete with the wrestler with more athletic talent who is also able to be successful in other sports. I have had wrestlers who were successful because they specialized in wrestling, I have also had wrestlers who were successful at multiples sports and did not specialize. I think both are great. If you are able to compete at multiple sports more power to you, if specializing in wrestling allows you be successful, that is an awesome thing about our sport also.

I doubt if anybody has read this far but if you have I will not address the questions of whether or not freestyle and Greco are more exciting and tougher than folk style, except to say that in both cases I don’t think they are. I have written too long so I will defend my positions on those questions at another time. If you haven’t guessed by my two too long posts I just finished up with school yesterday.

Tom Mc Cann Fan,
Very well stated. I think we need to re-evaluate why we have high school sports. If it is to provide kids with a college scholarship we have, and always will, fail miserably. There are thousands of times more high school programs than college programs. Therefore it is mathematically impossible to fit all high school athletes into college programs. If we think our goal should be to create world class athletes we will fail even more miserably because now we are trying to get all high school athletes into even fewer spots on world teams than there are colleges.

If our goal is to provide high school athletes with a great educational experience where they learn to deal with the "Thrill of Victory" and the Agony of Defeat", where they learn that life isn't always fair, but that hard work and perserverance will overcome most of the unfairness, where they learn other people are depending on them to do their share, etc, etc, etc then I think we are on track.

If we agree with that philosophy then we must zero in on which sports to offer. Tom Mc Cann Fan mentioned that many people claim that soccer is the world's most popular sport. That may be in some parts of the world. UNL football has sold out a 78,000 seat stadium for about a gazillion years. I suspect that if you didn't get your UNL soccer season tickets ordered in the first day they were offered you are probably not out of luck. You will probably still be able to get tickets. When those situations reverse then it will be time to say that soccer is the most popular sport in this part of the world and make the change.

Likewise, when we can walk into any NCAA or state high school wrestling tournament without a ticket that was purchased months in advance but need to reserve seats for the state and national freestyle and Greco Roman tournaments then it will be time to change to the more popular version in our high schools.

If being an Olympic or world champion is so important to a young wrestler then maybe we have to go to what many of the individual sports have done. Most world class gymnasts, skaters, and tennis players have left their homes at a very young age to train under a coach who has the reputation of developing world class competitors.

I would much rather have kids compete in a lot of sports for the pure joy and educational value of them than to try to get ready for the next level. I have no problem with those that want that and I wish them well. I just don't want to see a great high school system ruined by trying to drag everyone into a system that probably less that 1 % want.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by underhook:


It is no secret that the most successful wrestlers participate and embrace off-season wrestling. Where do you think that Aaron Denson and Matt Vacanti make their strides? It's not Dec.-Feb. when they are just pinning all of the "multi-sport athletes" out there who "would not want to wrestle year round."

I watched Aaron Denson pole vault at the state track meet last month and know that he was a very fine football player last fall. I think that would qualify him as a "multi-sport athlete". So when did he make his strides?