I am strictly talking about a state medalist caliber kid taking down a new wrestler caliber kid. We do not allow are kids to do this for a couple of reasons.
1. Practice does not make perfect it makes permanent. Meaning most of the time I see kids taking opponents of lesser ability they are not using takedowns that would work on anybody at the state tournament. They could very easily develop bad habits because the wrestlers of lesser ability do not react like wrestlers will in the semi's or match to go to state at districts. (That is the goal for all of our Varsity wrestlers and that is the match they are preparing for)
2. Plain and simple pins are worth more points than tech falls. I have seen several times kids build a lead of 12-14 points and then turn the kid trying for the fall and they don't get it because time runs out or the bottom kid bridges out.
3. Even if you are not trying to embarrass the other kid you are. You can make the arguement that they shouldn't be out then but tell me how you would feel if Cael Sanderson came to your room and did whatever he wanted to do to you, you would not feel very good about yourself after that.
4. My first year of coaching we were wrestling at a JV tournament and a returning state medalist couldn't compete on varsity before Christmas and he came to the JV tournament. He tookdown and let up everybody he wrestled that day several times and his dad was screaming at him in the stands yelling at him "get better get better, one more one more" That situation made me realize that a match is not a time to get better, practice is your time to get better.
No right or wrong answer on this one though I think

This message has been edited. Last edited by: huskernut,

quote:

Originally posted by Newman:
Two ethics questions for the wrestling community.
1. How many VARSITY tournys are allowing JV wrestlers to participate? We were at our conference tourny and we had jv kids wrestling in it to fill the brackets. While I like finding kids more matches, is this watering down wrestlers records? (This is a similar question to the post about 100 wins)
2. (Mainly for coaches) If JV wrestlers are in a tourny, is it the coaches responsibility to make sure a top wrestler does not humiliate a kid? I'm not talking about a 5 second pin here. What I'm asking about is taking down/releasing a kid for stats and not going for a pin. I saw a ref stop a match and warn a wrestler for not going for a pin when the guy was on his back.

The only time a referee may step in and penalize for unsportsmanlike conduct in these situations is when
1.) the offensive wrestler has the defensive wrestler in a pinning combination with a fall being imminent and the defensive wrestler is "cut" or let up,
2.) when the offensive wrestler is "humiliating" his/her opponent, which is extremely subjective, but examples could include releasing the defensive wrestler with excessive force (ie: from the front position, pushing the head into the mat, pushing the defensive wrestler in the back well beyond what is necessary to create separation for purposes of scoring an escape).

I'm all for the sport being open to different styles, being extremely physical, etc...however, we are all kidding ourselves and not looking at this honestly if we try and say that the type of thing that started this entire thread doesn't occur and shouldn't be better managed for the sake of the sport. It begins (and should end, in my opinion) with coaching. I could reference many, many times when a coach will tell his wrestler, after gaining a double digit lead, "get the fall". That should be the first thing the wrestler is attempting to do once he has secured that first takedown. I smile a little bit inside when I see a wrestler who is taking his/her opponent down repeatedly when they clearly could end the match early get caught in a late headlock and get pinned. How do those stat sheets look now?

I understand wanting mat time and the issues that smaller schools face with a lack of workout partners, but I don't for a minute buy the argument that it justifies much of what has been offered in previous posts. As my coach used to say, you don't get better during a match, you get better during practice. The match is just proof that you have been paying attention and working hard during the week in the room.

quote:

Originally posted by SayWhatWillis?:
I smile a little bit inside when I see a wrestler who is taking his/her opponent down repeatedly when they clearly could end the match early get caught in a late headlock and get pinned.

I kinda like this too.

At the risk of being unpopular........

Should we expect our athletes to be concerned with an opponents "feelings" during the course of a match. Maybe we should just stop keeping score and raise both hands after the match. Maybe we could add four more classes and have eight state champions instead of four. Better yet, instead of a podium we could hand out a bunch of participation ribbons. Life is tuff, and so is wrestling. We want our kids to gain self confidence and feel good about themselves then sign em up for boy scouts. You want em to learn how to deal with adversity, then sign up up for wrestling.

I'm joking of course....maybe, ok, not really.

I've been on both ends of the stick. I've walked off the mat after getting pinned thinking "I was in that match," or "I could have won...but I got caught." I have never felt that way after being teched, or taken down at will. It wasn't fun and nor did I feel good about myself, further, I wasn't too crazy about wrestling those individuals anytime soon."

Likewise, if I was wrestling someone I'd want them to feel dominated too. I don't care if they are a returning state champion or just someone to fill in a bracket. I wouldn't want them to have a good time wrestling me, or wouldn't want them to be excited about the idea of wrestling me either.

This board generally has a disdain for the Iowa wrestling program. However, as an example, it is quite apparent that Iowa is not interested in merely winning. They are interested in total domination. Winning itself is a disapointment. Listen to Metcalf's post tourney interview after being OW in '08. look at how morose that whole team was in accepting the team national championship trophy (no individual champs, generally didn't wrestle as well as could have).

We hate and scoff at those attitudes, but embrace Bo Pelini because that is his approach. How many of us felt poorly for Steve Spurier during the '96 Fiesta Bowl? Minnesota in '83, Arizona St. in '95, and how many of us were disapointed during the '10 Holiday bowl when Arizona accumulated over 100 yards of total offense (Suh playing the entire time)?

On paper more even opponents you say. Ok, but how many were outraged when NU only beat Ball State 41-40 in '07? How many will be outraged if South Dakota State scores more than 10 points on our black shirts (on upcoming schedule).

There is no diference between NU (85 limit NCAA schoolies) playing SDSU (only 70 max) in football, and a stud from say Amherst wrestling a bracket filler from say Alma. Both SDSU and Alma had a choice to compete, and we shouldn't expect NU or Amherst (in example) to be concerned with how their opponent feels after the match.

Great post and insightful analogies! Thank You!

I agree great post Dalton. Our team says dominate when they huddle up, and that is what they want to do.

Dalton that is a great post and it does make a lot of sense, but if we are using the football reference then you could make the arguement that taking down and letting up would be like on the kick a runner downing the ball right after they caught it on a less scholarship team because they needed more work on offense. How would fans feel if next year we wanted to get some more work for our Quarterback so right after we score we let them run the next kickoff back so our offense could come back out the first four or five times we score. Just another way to look at things

I think you are stretching and abusing the annalogy. That doesn't happen, and letting someone score a td is not dominating. You would just go 3 and out to get the ball back.

Anyways, I think a kid can and does look like a bafoon sometimes. I remember seeing a kid snap an opponent, spin behind and push the opponent away before he had ever gained control and was awarded his 2 points. Or kids doing "clinic moves" on lesser opponents. Certainly not needed.

I've never met Metcalf but I would guess that even he would say a first period pin is dominating. However I have no problem with a kid taking down and releasing if that is his best strategy to win the match. Should you care about how someone "feels"? Yes. That's sportsmans ship. You should not set out to make someone feel like crap. If someone "feels" bad if a superior wrestler pins him in the first period, that's his problem. If you are purposely pounding on someone more than is necessary to win a match, that's unsportsman like. I'm not saying you should take it easy on anyone. I think every wrestler should go out and get physical and even make them fear you. But once you've got someone beat you should finish. After all (I know I'll take a beating for this) wrestling is a sport not a life and death fight for food or freedom. And God help your wrestlers if you're training them differently. Wrestling is supposed to train people to be tough and to realize that they can handle anything life throws at them. It shouldn't be a tool to create mean uncaring bullys out of gifted athletic KIDS.

I may not make many friends saying this, but I think that it is perfectly acceptable for a kid to takedown a kid and let them up as opposed to pinning the kid right away. Personally, I used to wrestle this way. My coaches would have kicked me in the butt if I went out there and pinned a kid in :10. I have seen some posts that have said that you get better in practice and not in a match. I totally disagree with that. Mat time is mat time and I think that anytime you are wrestling you are getting more experience and bettering yourself. If a kid goes out and pins another kid right away, neither of them are getting anything out of it. I think that even the kid continuously getting let up can gain something. The kid gets more mat time and maybe will become motivated to get to the level to compete with the other kid or to not let the same thing happen again. I hate to break it to a lot of you, but life is tough, as is wrestling. I think that wrestling mirrors life in more ways than any other sport. It teaches so many valuable lessons. One important lesson that needs to be learned is that it is not how many times you fall down, but how many times you pick yourself back up.

COhusker, I think you are spot on. I bet your coaches didn't want you to do that so you wouldn't become rusty and also to warm up for your tougher matches. We have a kid that if he either doesn't wrestle a first round match or doesn't get warmed up in one, he doesn't wrestle well the next round, therefore we have him get 2-3 takedowns and get the juices flowing before he goes for the fall.

quote:

I've never met Metcalf but I would guess that even he would say a first period pin is dominating.

I've never met him either, and he might say that. However, I've never seen him go for a first period fall. I have seen him tech people without any back points though. He might pin people now and again, but half of that is his opponent wanting the match to be over, and the other half is opportunity as opposed to forcing the issue. I would go further and sugest that for a guy who wants to dominate as bad and as much as a Metcalf, a tech fall isn't even the ultimate. He'd rather stall a guy out of a match then tech him. I'd add the words "could be" before the word dominating to your quote.

I would say that UNO 125 lbs Mac LaRock didn't feel dominated after getting pinned in the first period during the 2001 national finals. I would also say that Kurt Bohaboj didn't feel dominated by Rick Hasenphlugasdf (sp) in the 199...7 (I think) state finals. On the flip side, I'd say Craig Brester's first period pins are pretty dominating.

My point is that pins can happen just like a takedown; bad position for a split second and a match is over. Those individuals mentioned ran off the match thinking they got caught. If you get teched, you walk off the match thinking you got caught......a bunch of times. It is sort of that Randy Coture attitude of, "yeah I could submit guys, but I want them to know they got beat. I want them to feel it when they wake up the next morning."

Dalton, U r right on with your posts.

I have personally been beaten severely by a dominant wrestler, all of his points were scored by TD's... Was I embarrassed during that match? Absolutely not, I was getting ticked off and wanted to kick his rear.

I had no hard feelings towards him, his coach, or any of his fans who cheered each time he got the td. I can promise this as though, I worked harder in practice the next few weeks so to make myself a better wrestler.

And it has been a learning experience for me to this day.

well, I'm glad Rocker didn't get rid of this thread, it stayed alive long enough to get some excellent feedback from several knowledgeable and respected people. Regardless, does any of it actually answer Newman's part 2 question at the high school level?

I'll attempt to answer that but I can only speak for myself. In my case and the rest of my staff, our wrestlers do what we ask of them. If we tell them to cut and get some more, they'd better cut and get some more. If we tell them to go for the fall, they'd better go for the fall. We never use it for stats or anything like that. The only thing we use it for is to get better. So I guess in our case, as coaches we all agree to do it but not to the point of humiliation.

yeah, understood and agreed! However, doesn't it seem that part 2 of the question involves a wrestler being on his back and then let up? Just curious, am I reading that wrong?

I can see where you'd interpret it that way. When I read "top" wrestler, I read it as top as in better wrestler. In the case of top meaning the guy on top letting him off his back, I believe by the rule book it says it is unsportsmanlike to let him go when he is on his back in other words "cutting" him straight from his back. It is not against the rules to let him roll over. Right or wrong, I've had kids that I have let do this. The situation I did it in is a kid that needed major work on turning and tilting. As hard as I tried, he wasn't getting better at it in practice because his partners always knew what he was trying to do. So in a match I had him turn the kid 3 different times then I had him go for the fall. Usually, I'll only let my kids take a kid down and let them go 3 times or so before going for the fall. Now, I've also had matches where I had a kid that was really good on his feet but was wrestling a kid that was really dangerous when on bottom. Not wanting to risk being reversed to our back, I had him take down and cut. A particular kid I can think of I actually did this at camp 2 summers ago against a current wrestler from Ord who wasn't good on his feet but very good on the mat Probably couldn't do that today because the kid from Ord is much better on his feet! Can I take credit for that? Anyway, that's why we do it sometimes and how I see it, right or wrong!