Grapplinman,

I agree with you there is a huge split between those that sit in the chairs and those that sit in the stands on this issue. Most coaches want things to stay the same as they are now. Fans do not spend the time on the mat and pratice room making not only better wrestlers but better people. Summer wrestling allows for the best to compete out of the state vs anyone they choose. High school wrestling is for everyone. It does not take away from the best when there are 4 state champs. Keep in mind there are over 150 state champs in the US at each weight each year.

HB,

As for Blair if there coaches what it to happen lets ask why. This is not a school that has came close to pushing to the middle of B talent. I think the answer at many of those schools is to worry more about getting better during the off season, working in the weight room and upgrade the schedule. Most class B teams are not going to get better unless they take on the best teams in the state. Building a program requires hours and hours of working with your young kids, getting them to meets and lifting weights. It requires the parents as well as the coach and kids to make it happen. Moving teams around will never make any team better.

I think the classification issue needs to be looked at across the board. Therefore it is not a wrestling only issue. It is amazing to me that a school like Columbus Lakeview can be B in wrestling and Boys basketball but C-1 in Girls Basketball. Centennial is C in wrestling B in track. I do not think there are enough schools in A or B in Football etc. Actually our track coach thinks wrestling has it correct 4 classes. 32-48 and split the rest in 2 classes.
On another note I am not sure points scored at the state meet is a viable data source. One or two people can score a bunch of points, where as you can have say 5 kids win one or two matches in the wrestlebacks at state with out any pins and you may only score 10 or so points.

The proposal for 40 schools in Class A does not leave the C and D districts in dire straights! By moving to the magic 40, each c and d district lose 1 team. I don't think that the proposed realignment hurts c and d that much but doesn't help them either. Does it help the state of the sport in Nebraska? That answer has yet to be seen or even truly researched. Its kind of like ecology, in that you don't really know how it will effect anything until its already been done.

Having a couple of powerhouses in the state helps the sport of wrestling, imho, bringing national interest and exposure to our state and thus our wrestlers. It doesn't matter what class or size that school is. Can they compete at the national level? Yes they can, and that brings credibility to anyone who wrestlers them back home. Its too bad that a team like Aurora didn't win state over the past decade. But I'm sure that they relished the opportunity to continue to attempt it. Them winning it after the magic 40 probably wouldn't be as sweet. Who knows. Howells, Rushville, and probably a few other class D teams over the last decade would have done fine at any class in most states across the union. This is an individual sport where team points are kept and it isn't so much about student body population, imho. Some areas are benefitted by population base to flatter and open enrollment has added to the landscape/complexity of education and athletic competition. What does going to 40 solve? Does it make wrestling better, does it make individuals better, or does it simply make class A better and the other classes weaker? I don't know the answer. No one does for sure.

If I had to change the face of wrestling to make each class more competitive and possibly raise the bar across the state of nebraska for high school wrestling I probably would lean toward a 3 class system. 220 total schools broken down in this fashion, approximately: 40, 70, 110. The school population would be about a 4 fold increase. Class A would go from roughly 2000 to 500. Class B from 500 to 150, and Class C from 150 to 40. That would break down 40,000 students in class A (average of 1000 students x 40). 20,000 in class B and 10,000 in class C. By doing this you would have ten teams, 17 teams and 27 teams per the four district set up. Class A would remain the same. Class B would split the district in half (call it sectionals) and have the top three go from each sectional to a six man bracket at districts. The top four from each district go. Class C would have the same senario as class B except the top four would come out of sectionals and the top four out of the eight man bracket would then advance the following week at districts. How many losing records would come out of this? None in B or C, but possibly one or two in A, but that is ok. Which class would be the hardest to qualify in? IT would depend on the year and the weight class just like it does now I imagine. What did this do? Elevate the prestige of the state tournament. Anything else? Is this what should be done to improve wrestling in Nebraska? I honestly don't know. Enough for now>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I will say this HB and Mike. Using your logic that there are too many losing records in one division (districts and state), I would hate for you to be a spokesperson for Coach Denney, Coach Bauer and Coach Fritzen. Using your logic....well, let's just say there wouldn't be any Division II in the NCAA....Maybe you two can write to the NCAA to help our state colleges out! You both need to check the number of teams and the overall records at regionals......I know, you two will want to call out Coach Denney and the boys about not having stones enough to move up with the big dogs....fire away boys.

quote:

Originally posted by HB:
I'll respond after I'm done meeting with the future governor of Nebraska in a few minutes! I am making the rounds slowly. I know the Blair head coach is adamently in favor of the idea after talking to him the other night.

Why would blair care about this? They have a mediocore program at best and it would only stack them up against even more talented teams with more athletes and resources than blair would ever have.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Red Rocker,

I'd kind of have to ask the same the type of question that Doug is asking: Why are people who aren't coaches such huge proponents of this? I would have to say that as a coach of a new program, I'd be a little hesitant to jump right into this. I don't know how coaches Wilcox, Branigan, Shrader, etc. feel, but right now I don't think it would be the best move for us, realizing of course that we're just one team. In any case, just my $.02. I personally feel like we wrestle a very competitive schedule (about as tough as our school district will allow), and I will NEVER apologize for any of my kids for putting themselves in the position to be a state qualifier.
Besides, how would adding only two more teams per district affect the number of losing records at the state tournament? How many of the top 8 class B teams (aside from Skutt), fill an entire lineup? Any concrete numbers?

Here's an idea: Last year coach Kupfer sent out a new district proposal to each head coach in class A, asked each coach to choose for or against, and asked to send it back to him so he had a solid number. According to him, it overwhelmingly passed, with only a few coaches not responding. In any case, I believe 100% of the responsed he got back were for his proposal.

As a side note, this was brought up before the NSAA BOC, and even with this solid data, it was shot down.

Why not do something like this? I know Mike has just about everybody's email address. It would seem to be quick and fairly inexpensive. Besides, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think throughout this entire thread, I've counted exactly two confirmed "yeas" to this proposal. I don't think that'll get 'er done.

Like I said, my humble opinion. Bottom line?
I guess I'd need more solid date, like coach Denson suggests.

Good to know that anyone that's not a coach is considered too dumb to actually have any crediblity when it comes to the sport. Thanks! I'll just go sit in the corner and continue to be a dummy. I'll let the really "smart" people make the decisions-just like the old Soviet Union! Ooops I just fell off the turnip truck!

-sigh-

Now, I know you aren't a language professor, Ross, but your last post is really quite quixotic (oooops, that means rash). I don't think anyone accused you of being dumb or doltish. What I did say was that your logic needed a little fine tuning. I also don't know much about the history lesson you are trying to teach. I didn't realize you were an educator. But that being said, let's just look at this for what it is. The message is pretty clear. You have your opinion as a WELL EDUCATED FAN of wrestling. But to what extent should your opinion be the voice of reason and decision making for the coaches who actually coach the sport? The decision for moving classifications in wrestling should be a joint decision based upon the "will" of the collective coaches in the sport (and to a certain extent) the AD's who have to administer these sports. These decisions, should be made with great care and utilizing all the information that can be gathered. It is funny that in oxymoronish fashion, you bring up the Soviet Union. The very thing I am preaching here is the American way....what you have been preaching sounds a bit like the age old Soviet Way. If, indeed, Ross, you want to be an educator, then educate us on this issue, but certainly don't ram it down our throats. Remember this my friend....I didn't say a move was necessarily BAD.....but I haven't examined enough information to make an informed decision. So LOGIC compels me to NOT make a rash decision. According to your past posts it is: "well the proposal is up...it is a good one.....let's go with it...and it's a done deal." But within this context, we haven't become INFORMED........I can't get the message across to you in any better English than that. If you were running my business and making decisions without doing your homework....well, you might bankrupt me!

Couldn't have said it better myself, Coach D. Is this move the best for the fans, or the best for the wrestlers, coaches, AD's, etc.?

Doug, I agree with you. I don't necessarily disagree, but on the other hand I feel uncomfortable backing a proposal that has no real study behind it. Being informed is where it's at. You gotta have it, or the decision will not be a good one. I prefer to observe the follies of the other end of the political spectrum. It was Adolf Hitler (or maybe G.W.?) who said,

" Es gibt nichts 'was so gefaehrlich, als ein Buerger, der Information hat."

--Nothing is more dangerous than the informed citizen.

I do think a really well-thought out presentation needs to be made. I agree at least that far with grapplinman. I suggest less debate and more time putting together a presentation. Then have the presentation on the front page of Huskermat. Something the world herald could then point to if they so chose to take up the issue.

If we can have a detailed description of every state title competition in every weight in every class of Nebraska; surely at least as impressive of a document related to this issue can be put together.

Pay no attention to me anymore gentlemen. I'm just going to sit on the sidelines like the illogical dummy I am. You guys certainly don't need my input. As Eddie Murphy said in Trading Places "I think I will....retire." I will look forward to an exciting state tournament next year where Omaha Northwest and Lincoln Southeast battle it out for the annual "Well we'd whip anyone in Class D" award. Cheerio ol boy! We shall fear no Omaha Skutt for they are mere immortals! And Kearney shall rule the toughest of the Class A universe, knowing full well their title is tainted and they've ducked the great Skyhawks from Skutt! Gentlemen, life is indeed very good for Nebraska right now!

Ross, Ross, Ross......sarcasm isn't one of your better forte's. Somewhere in all of this, we have lost track of the real issue and how to handle it. And what we have left is the taint of sarcasm. Remember that people can be illogical without being dumb. What you have to do is go into any journal of learning styles; it is clearly presented in the area of multiple intelligences. But, that isn't what we are talking about.

Whether you stand on the sideline or not is your choice. Whether you call yourself dumb or not is also your choice. You got to love our ability to be free in America, don't you?

The question is the proposal on the table as it exists today. The question is: Do we plow ahead with blinders on, or do we do our homework? And I am taking it, by your reply, Ross, that you like plowing ahead.

One thing you did for me in this last (?) post on this subject matter, it to clarify your stance through a bit of sarcastic rhetoric. And here it is:

You would like to see the Skutt Streak end because, in your opinion, they are NOT immortal (literally) and might not win 9 in a row in class A. It appears as though you think that the coaches in Nebraska view winning a class A championship without Skutt as tainted? You appear to think that Kearney is ducking Skutt and that Kearney has somehow won the state title in A next year already? And I am almost reading between the lines here, but your last statement may, on a side note, imply that we don't think life is good?

Lastly, I didn't know you were a Brit? Wow...learn something new every day.

You almost talked me into believing this wasn't about Skutt, but your last and final post shows me the real story....this one is all about Skutt and nothing but Skutt so help me God (heard that in Law and Order....LOL...or something like that).

I certainly date myself, fellow readers of the forum, but I do remember the heyday of Northwest and the Heyday of Southeast...who's to say these guys won't rise from the ashes yet again........

I've presented my case many before and now I'll stand on the sidelines. As you said, its the people involved that have to live and die with changes that are or aren't made. I shall speak no further on this issue, ever. Wrestling was here before I was here and it will be here long after I'm gone.

A Salvation Army band played
And the children drank lemonade
And the morning lasted all day,
All day
And through an open window came
Like Sinatra in a younger day,
Pushing the town away
Ah -

(Chant)
Ah hey ma ma ma
Life in a northern town.

They sat on the stoney ground
And he took a cigarette out
And everyone else came down
To listen.
He said "In winter 1963
It felt like the world would freeze
With John F. Kennedy
And the Beatles."

(Chant)
Ah hey ma ma ma
Life in a northern town.
Ah hey ma ma ma
All the work shut down.

The evening had turned to rain
Watch the water roll down the drain,
As we followed him down
To the station
And though he never would wave goodbye,
You could see it written in his eyes
As the train rolled out of sight
Bye-bye.

(Chant)
Ah hey ma ma ma
Life in a northern town.
Ah hey ma ma ma
Life in a northern town.

Ross a Brit??? Can't be -- his teeth are too straight. (bah dah BING)

As I think back on this topic, I seem to recall back when the original reclassification in 1995 (-ish) put 24 schools in A for wrestling as it was for basketball, football and -- if they had enough schools to be split into multiple classes -- gymnastics and swimming.

Of course, we all know what a debacle that was for wrestling (5 qualifiers with zero wins, one or two first-round byes), and the suggestion then was made by some (obviously not within the NSAA) that Class A should be 32 or 40 schools for wrestling, which would then weed out a number of those subpar records and encourage teams that see each other 7-8 times a year to "get out of town" a little more often.

This argument was being made BEFORE the arrival of the "Green-And-Black-Attack" we know as Omaha Skutt. This was when it was Omaha North and Kearney that were, allgedly, recruiting wrestlers and being the dominant forces that they were (and, to a certain extent, still are).

Now that there are many more programs in the state than there were in 1995, there is an overload of teams in Class D AND the ongoing problem (and, yes, it is a problem) of subpar records earning qualifying bids for state in Class A. The idea of expanding A to 40 teams is a good one that, as it turns out (and could very well be the impetus for the proposal), includes Omaha Skutt.

Moving 8 teams up would improve the quality of state tournament qualifiers in Class A, there is no denying that. Using this year's qualifiers as an example shows that -- assuming you would add one-fourth of the qualifiers from the 8 affected schools -- it would bring 12 additional qualifiers with winning records into Class A. Class A would still have more sub-.500 qualifiers than the other three classes, but it would be at a much more equitable rate of disparity.

Grap...you may very well be right that this proposal is all about bumping Skutt out of the home they have dominated for the last decade. But the bottom line is that it's a move that has been long overdue, with or without Skutt, and will make Class A a little more entertaining if nothing else.

And as anybody who has been around high school athletics long enough knows -- especially you, Grap -- is that high school sports is cyclical. No school is a top-shelf program in any sport forever. Battle Creek and Lincoln Southeast, for example, used to be really big dogs in the football world, and they've both run into lean years. You mentioned Omaha Northwest and Lincoln Southeast once being wrestling behemoths, and right now both programs are looking up at the rest of Class A. Who's to say that those programs won't rise again and that Omaha Skutt might become the next Omaha Gross -- a program that had a run of success and is now struggling to get back to that upper echelon. It's all a part of the circle of life.

Oh, and if Ross would be able to recommend a good dentist -- I lost a filling the other day and the pain is KILLING me.

You're wasting your breath Mike C. I've fought for 7 years to make the wrestling in the state better and now I realize I'm fighting a losing battle. Wrestling in this state is run by the good ol boys network. You won't win this battle. Lets just sit back and laugh at Class A like we've been doing for 7 years.

LOL...your last post, Ross, has been one after another.....I'm beginning to wonder if your math is messed up.

Maybe I am looking at this all the wrong way and asking all the wrong questions. This might be why I am not getting any straight answers from the either of you on this subject matter.

In the present system, if the majority of those who are consumers (that would be the wrestling coaches and their constituents) don't have a problem with the way things are, then why would the two of you stand on the bannister yelling or crying foul?

You have to admit that when this proposal was written, it was written for some very specific reasons. We have talked about them til the cows come home and I don't have any cows. Similarly, the rationales written in THE PROPOSAL don't have any data to back the NEED. So I can and do take issue with this proposal. If one of our state legislators threw something written like this on the legislative floor, It would be laughed out of the place. For obvious reasons.

Yet, this one is not because some of you have the forgone conclusion that this needs to be done, should have been done before the dawn of man, and everything else is irrelevant. I don't think this is right.

The management partner (so to speak) of high school sports in Nebraska has to be the NSAA. The NSAA is out there to serve the needs and the will of the consumer. The immediate consumer would be the member schools, AD's, Coaches and Athletes. We can agree to this right?

This proposal was thrown out in front of the consumer, and it wasn't very thoroughly or well written. Then, in most cases the vote came about without so much as a presentation of both sides of the matter. And in many cases, Mike and Ross, this thing was voted on without many AD's addressing the issue with their coaches. So it passed in three districts and failed in three districts (which to me is a pretty luke warm thing)....and now it is off to a vote of the 6 executive board members.

You guys can honestly say that this was good policy and procedure? Let me hear you say it and don't throw a smoke screen out there, either.

On a side note:

When the 24 teams went back to 32, I believe the same action was taken for CC and Track as well....correct? The NSAA didn't just separate wrestling out of the mix.

Tell me this...the final product, and this one is for Ross and Mike, the final product, which is the 6 state placers in each class.....was this final product sub-par for class A? I mean, the final product is what we are worried about, correct?

My plan to protest the current structure is going into place. I will outline it soon, as I have already spoken to Mike C about this. Much like the prelude to the civil war, we at Huskermat will just stop failing to recognize that certain things (or in this case, classes and teams) exist. I'm sure it will be easy to pick up the slack though. Covering one class with 32 (well actually 20) teams should be easy for someone to do.

From an outsider looking in, I would think the coaches should be trying to put the ENTIRE SPORT of wrestling ahead of their own programs. In the end, this would benefit their programs as well. Moving Class A to 40 teams would better the sport. It would make both A and B much more competitive instead of having runaway state titles. I can certainly see why Denson is against it...Skutt would kick their fanny and he wouldn't get his headlines! I haven't heard one word about why this would be bad for our beloved sport. B teams should love it because Skutt is gone, A teams shouldn't care unless they are Millard South, Burke, North, Prep. They are the only contenders anyway. Again, better competition builds better wrestling. Get it done!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Red Rocker,

Grappplerman you keep asking for data in favor yet we never see your data why it should stay the same. Is that because your data shows the move is a good idea or do you have no data? HB presented his data and has a good point. You keep saying this is a Skutt issue only for the B schools and not the A. It looks like the majority of the people opposed are from A. They dont want to admit it but it is a Skutt issue for both A and B. Neither wants them in their class. To say the decision is only for the coaches and ADs is totally wrong. There is no reason why the fans should not have their input. They are the ones buying the tickets. Without the fans the NSAA could not survive and opportunities for the kids would be lost.