Why do we only let one kid wrestle per weight class?
A couple other topics on here are bringing to mind my arguement, and I know we have talked about it before, and I want to bring it up again.
Your work on the state dusl proposal seems to be going well, Maybe we need to try to change this as well.
You have 2 kids rated from the same team at the same weight, and ritefuly so.
Some questions to try and answer.
1. Why are we makeing our kids choose to loose or gain too much weight, or wrestle jv or sit the bench?
2. Would you tell your second best track sprinter sorry kid we already have someone in the 100 and 200 you can try the vault or long jump? Maybe try again next year when you are better than the state champ or he graduates. By the way keep on practicing and pushing the vasity guy just in case he gets hurt.
3. What do you tell a kid that goes 27-0 that is siting in the stands at the quest watching his teamates get medals, when he asks you,"Is there going to be a varsity spot for me next year? I would like to know because my friends are asking me to play basketball, they say I would be a starter and we could make the state tournament if I played."
4. When it is 1/2 way through the football season and your coach, who in our small D school is also the wrestleing coach, asks the guys going to wrestle to meet after practice. All 15 of you, and that is over half of the football team, show up and he says "well 9 of you guys are on the roster at 170 lbs. if we are going to score many points at tournaments some of you need to start cutting and some of you get on the protien and gain" Which do you choose?
5. I'm in a wrestle off, again, I'v got the arm bar, do I bring it around hard so I can finaly get on varsity?
6. Is it fair that team A has 15 kids on there team and wieghts are spread out has 14 classes filled goes to a tournament against team B who has 15 kids out wieghts are bunched up team A outscores team B by 100 points although team B kids are much better wrestlers?
7. Is it right that we have kids with loosing records making it to state when far better kids are staying home?

I would like to talk about a proposal to allow 14 kids score at tournaments even if some are at the same weight.

It’s about time somebody started this thread!

As I remember it, when I wrestled in Oregon we had 32 man brackets at districts. There were two wrestlers from each school at each weight. At my weight my senior year, both the first and second place finishers at districts were from the same school and therefore both went to state. They wrestled against each other in the finals and the media made a big deal out of it.

Each school had what we called, a “First Varsity” and “Second Varsity” team and the remaining wrestlers were “JV.” "Second Varsity" wrestlers could earn a letter. And at some tournaments, including districts, they were seeded on the bracket side opposite of their team mate.

We had one of the worst teams in the state with the least amount of interest and virtually no support, yet we managed to fill the entire “First Varsity” and “Second Varsity” rosters with many JV wrestlers left over. Because wrestling was designed to be more inclusive it attracted more participants. I don’t remember weight loss ever being as big of a deal as it is today in Nebraska.

As Cowcatcher described, there are many good reasons for going to this design!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Patriot 152,

It wouldn't be that hard to put in the same system they have in NAIA. 10 weight classes 12 people can wrestle. Can't have three to a weight but if they want they can fill six weights with two wrestlers in each weight. High school 14 kids to a tournament but can have 7 weights with 2 wrestlers on the same team scoring points for the team. It wouldn't be that hard to implement and it seems the next logical step if a state dual tournament is passed. You would probably get more disparity between dual team champs and team tournament champs if it was done this way.

There would obviously be some difficulty when running tournaments if every team brought two wrestlers at say 171, but I think an easy fix to that is making sure coaches know that any weights that would push it to a 32 man bracket (16 man brackets should be fine with the new 6 match per day limit) would be wrestled as a bunny bracket and the loser could be done after his first match.

Also it would make coaches evaluate their kids a little better, but that kinda takes out the earn your varsity spot in a wrestle off which is one thing that makes wrestling great (but we still have duals for that)

Huskernut

I think this is a must. The one problem you run into is, is how do you tell the the only kid in your room that fits into the 215 slot he can't be a "varsity" wrestler because it would be better to double up at a lower weight?

Would it be required to be OPEN at a weight class to be able to double up kids at a different weight? I understand doing best for your team but there how do you tell a kid he can't wrestle when he's the only kid at that weight class?

Interesting Topic...one the NSAA should look at.

Well I just cant imagine this situation comes up that often . I would think from class b down probably very rarely. Maybe more so in the class A big schools . And if that is the case then change the class A rules first to see how it works out then go from there. There are only 8 teams in a class A dist anyway . Maybe if we could see these examples where this has come up in the past we could examine it more. Would be really interested in hearing from those that have examples where this has happened . Anybody ????

Where there are rules and regulations there are always people wanting to change them to fit there needs. Wrestling is no different than any other sport such as only one back in football geting to carry the ball for his team. And I dont think you can make the statement this only happens in the larger schools. There are always 2 or 3 kids that are the same weight, the better one gets his choice and there is a pecking order. If you let two kids wrestle at the same weight that may weaken other brackets. For high school it is still a team sport which recognizes the best individual from each school. Not always fair. What a great country we live in! It is great to have the opportunity to discuss such great topics among fellow country men. God Bless America and my fellow wrestlers!

quote:

Originally posted by Mission Control:
Where there are rules and regulations there are always people wanting to change them to fit there needs.

I really don't think this discussion is about "people trying to change rules to fit their needs." There are some pretty valid points to this argument.

The strength of a team should not only be measured by it's standouts but also by its depth. In a two-man system this is more easily accomplished.

Two wrestlers from the same school in the same weight might bring down the number of sub-.500 state qualifiers in Class A to the levels that are in the other three classes. Just a thought...

Not creating an argument just stating my opinion, there are more sides than one to every argument and just stating some factors that could be a problem

quote:

Originally posted by cowcatcher:
Why do we only let one kid wrestle per weight class?
A couple other topics on here are bringing to mind my arguement, and I know we have talked about it before, and I want to bring it up again.
Your work on the state dusl proposal seems to be going well, Maybe we need to try to change this as well.
You have 2 kids rated from the same team at the same weight, and ritefuly so.
Some questions to try and answer.
1. Why are we makeing our kids choose to loose or gain too much weight, or wrestle jv or sit the bench?
2. Would you tell your second best track sprinter sorry kid we already have someone in the 100 and 200 you can try the vault or long jump? Maybe try again next year when you are better than the state champ or he graduates. By the way keep on practicing and pushing the vasity guy just in case he gets hurt.
3. What do you tell a kid that goes 27-0 that is siting in the stands at the quest watching his teamates get medals, when he asks you,"Is there going to be a varsity spot for me next year? I would like to know because my friends are asking me to play basketball, they say I would be a starter and we could make the state tournament if I played."
4. When it is 1/2 way through the football season and your coach, who in our small D school is also the wrestleing coach, asks the guys going to wrestle to meet after practice. All 15 of you, and that is over half of the football team, show up and he says "well 9 of you guys are on the roster at 170 lbs. if we are going to score many points at tournaments some of you need to start cutting and some of you get on the protien and gain" Which do you choose?
5. I'm in a wrestle off, again, I'v got the arm bar, do I bring it around hard so I can finaly get on varsity?
6. Is it fair that team A has 15 kids on there team and wieghts are spread out has 14 classes filled goes to a tournament against team B who has 15 kids out wieghts are bunched up team A outscores team B by 100 points although team B kids are much better wrestlers?
7. Is it right that we have kids with loosing records making it to state when far better kids are staying home?

I would like to talk about a proposal to allow 14 kids score at tournaments even if some are at the same weight.

Sorry, but there are some pretty outlandish or greatly exaggerated statements/comments here.


1. Why are we makeing our kids choose to loose or gain too much weight, or wrestle jv or sit the bench?

Nobody makes anybody choose to gain or lose too much weight. It is always a choice of the individual. Even if there are multiple wrestlers allowed at the same weight kids will still choose to cut thinking they gain an advantage.


2. Would you tell your second best track sprinter sorry kid we already have someone in the 100 and 200 you can try the vault or long jump? Maybe try again next year when you are better than the state champ or he graduates. By the way keep on practicing and pushing the vasity guy just in case he gets hurt.

Valid point.


3. What do you tell a kid that goes 27-0 that is siting in the stands at the quest watching his teamates get medals, when he asks you,"Is there going to be a varsity spot for me next year? I would like to know because my friends are asking me to play basketball, they say I would be a starter and we could make the state tournament if I played."

If a kid is 27-0, why is he in the stands at the Qwest? You cannot tell us that there has been many JV wrestlers (if any at all) that have gone 27-0 on a season and are not on Varsity.


4. When it is 1/2 way through the football season and your coach, who in our small D school is also the wrestleing coach, asks the guys going to wrestle to meet after practice. All 15 of you, and that is over half of the football team, show up and he says "well 9 of you guys are on the roster at 170 lbs. if we are going to score many points at tournaments some of you need to start cutting and some of you get on the protien and gain" Which do you choose?

Once again, when if ever do you see 9 kids that all weigh the same weight?


5. I'm in a wrestle off, again, I'v got the arm bar, do I bring it around hard so I can finaly get on varsity?

This speaks more to the ethics and sportsmanship of the individual than anything else. Same question could be asked without any changes to number of wrestlers allowed at the same weight.


6. Is it fair that team A has 15 kids on there team and wieghts are spread out has 14 classes filled goes to a tournament against team B who has 15 kids out wieghts are bunched up team A outscores team B by 100 points although team B kids are much better wrestlers?

When you start to bring "fair" into the arguement it mucks up the whole thing. It will happen regardless of what rules are put in place, more than one "good" kid will end up at the same weight class.


7. Is it right that we have kids with loosing records making it to state when far better kids are staying home?

Similar to the "fair" arguement. It happens across the classes and will continue to happen regardless of how many kids are allowed at the same weight.


None of the comments in green above are meant to show that I disagree with allowing more than one wrestler at a weight class, I don't. I think it would be a good thing for High School
Wrestling. But if these are the arguements that are to be used to persuade people that it needs to happen, it is my opinion that they are weak and too far fetched for people to believe and get behind any type of movement to have more wrestlers per weight allowed.

JMHO

WWICM,

You make great points as did Cowcatcher. I hope this discussion will evolve and eventually lead to some positive results.

It might also be helpful to consider some of the goals and objectives of high school wrestling. It seems that one of the most important is to make the sport as inclusive as possible. How do you structure the system to encourage more kids to participate? Would a 2-wrester-per-weight system help support that goal?

WWICM Qwote Sorry, but ther are some pretty outlandish or greatly exaggerated statements/comments here.

1. I realize it is allways a kids choice as to cut or gain, but why does this have to be the only way, whynot let them wrestle at or nearer thier natural weight.

3. I don't want to put anyone on the spot and if they don't want to speak up thats fine, but class D has a 103 that I wish had the oppertunity. I think he beat the #2 rated kid in state. I know he is not 27-0 because he lost in overtime to his teamate, who might be rated 1st in state.

4. I exaggerated at 9, but I have a hard time believing that our school is the only one this has happened to. I think it was in 2009 we had the state champ at 160 one kid cut to 152, and that was too far, one kid went up to 171, one up to 189,and one won 90% of his matches on jv and could have qualified if had the chance, and two kids quit and thats the worst part.
lack of oppertunity = lack of partisipation

Sorry about bringing the fair or right thing to do into this, just trying to make the sport better.

Seems to me we need to change the whole system and have an open state tournament where everyone wrestles. Maybe a two weekend tournament and do away with districts that way everyone is included. That way no one from a district gets left behind because he has 4 state placers in his bracket.

Mission Control I think you are missing the point with your sarcasm. I truly think that this would make it harder to go to state. This is not about letting everyone participate, but would have coaches choose who wrestles and no longer would someone get to be on varsity for being the only person at a certain weight. I think it is the most logical step if a state dual tournament gets passed. This would be even more valid if Nebraska would go to a Three class system, but that is for another discussion.

I dont doubt it a bit but where do you draw the line. There is always someone left out. We have had kids be JV for 3 years until the get a chance to be varsity and step in and be a state medalist. There is alway one district that has several state placers in one bracket, that isnt fair for the kids in that district to be left behind at state. I am all for a better system but some will always be left out. If you allow 2 kids from the same school and weight to participate you will have to throw out team standings since teams will have an unfair advantage. And you will have coaches bumping kids to allow some to place at state. There are several times that a lower weight class maybe be tougher than the next one up. Everyone is complaining about Bolling moving up well if you allow 2 at one weight coaches will move kids around. I understand what you are saying and see it every year but I dont think allowing 1 or 2 extra kids on varsity will solve it. That would create a bigger problem in my opinion GI and Skutt would take all the hardware.

This is just my opinion...

I don't think this would pass in Nebraska high school wrestling. We have one major discussion about going to a 3 class system in Nebraska, and then this discussion going in the complete opposite direction (just my opinion). States like Iowa already look at Nebraska wrestling as second class and weak; this would only add to that.

Disregarding the opinions of other states, let's look at how to implement the rule change...

This rule change would have to be made at the national level. It could not be made at the state level. Many teams travel to other states. You would have a lot of Nebraska tournaments that would lose out-of-state teams to this extreme of a rule change. Any time that a Nebraska team would go to tournaments out-of-state, they would have to go back to the normal way, leaving some kids left out (decent plans would also be affected). I just don’t think it could work at the state level only, and I'm almost certain the national office would turn it down.

But let’s say the majority of Nebraska disagrees with me. So, to make it work on the state level it would have to be done at districts and state only. But then all year tournaments would have to be run just like we do now – which pretty much puts us back to where we are now.

Or we can give tournaments a variety of other options on how they want to run. If we run open tournaments, like college, you run into the same problem with out-of-state teams. You could allow unattached wrestlers, but, for the sake of team competition, that would put us back to where we are now, again. If you go with double ups but only 14 wrestlers total, how do you tell one kid that is on first varsity that he can’t wrestle in the varsity tournament because a second varsity kid at a completely different weight (say 103 vs. 171) is probably going to do better? (That becomes an even bigger issue at districts and state.)

Ok, say we decided to go for it still, and let the tournaments pick their poison. If they go with one of the two ways that allows both wrestlers from each weight on each team compete, the tournaments could potentially double in size. Now you’ve got major logistics problems. You have to look at making many tournaments 2 days, which would make teams either cut out other competitions, or you have to increase or get rid of the competition point system (I think the competition point system should changed anyways). I would think that many 1 day tournaments wouldn’t want to go to 2 days, so then you have to look at cutting teams out – to be safe, you would have to cut out nearly 1/2 the teams – now you have 4, 5, or 6 team tournaments. This means fewer spectators, which means less money coming in, which means the cost of wrestling becomes greater. Uh-oh… now more schools will cut wrestling or will co-op with other schools for wrestling due to cost. (I know it seems extreme, but you have to look at the worst case, snow ball effect.) If schools co-op, then there are half as many spots open, and you end up possibly excluding the same wrestlers you are trying to include.

I know it seems a little extreme, but these are the scenarios the state and national offices would look at as soon as you file a proposal. That is also how the AD’s would need to look at it, if it was even put to a district vote. I highly doubt this would pass in any district.

Don’t get me wrong, we have a few weights were this would help us out. I would love to have some of our kids that have to move around, or are on JV, compete at districts and state in the same weight classes. But looking at it from an unbiased view, this would be way too difficult to implement. I think it would be better to get the State Dual Tournament. Then you would be able to have some of those quality kids a chance to compete at that state tournament, as you may shift guys differently for different duals.

Again, these are just my views and opinions. Feel free to disagree. I love a good in-depth discussion.

One more option, just for laughs... we could do away with the tournament/bracket system for state and go to bowls instead

This message has been edited. Last edited by: pinmachine,

Mission Control,

I appreciate your view point but when making it, try to keep in mind that sarcasm doesn't contribute to good discussion. Insulting your "fellow Americans" as you put it, really only puts everyone on the defense. But of course that is your right.

Expanding a team's roster is actually giving more wrestlers a shot to compete in varsity tournaments as well as competing at districts. This means more competition thus making it more difficult to qualify for and to medal at state.

Simply put; more wrestlers mean more competition. When you look at all wrestlers collectively in the state, there are a lot of JV wrestlers out there that are better than a lot of varsity wrestlers.

wyoming allows 2 per weight class from each school to compete at regionals. only 1 wrestler scores points. if both qualify for state only 1 scores points. they dont have the population for the 3 class system they use. so lets say your kids meet up in the bracket and a state or district team race is close, does your jv kid have to throw the match for the team?

For the states that allow multiple entries at districts and state, how do they (or do they) regulate competitions (like competition points in NE)?

Im not insulting anyone. Maybe I was extreme in my exampes, but I like to keep things on the lighter side when trying to make a point. Im all for competition but I dont feel just adding more wrestlers create more competition. We know we can't add all the JV but again how do you put a fair program in place to allow JV to qualify. Sometimes a team may have 5 or 6 JV good enough to qualify. And all kidding aside I have to disagree with you on the sarcasm because it usually does get more people to contribute - which creates better discussion. It usually makes someone steaming mad and trys like heck to get their point across. Good job Patriot I just wish there was an easy way to hand pick 4 or 5 jv kids to fill out district brackets.